What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[Runmyramble]

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. [10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

The passages I posted deal directly with baptism. Peter explicitly states that water saves. How them can it be nothing more than an outward identification of something inwardly? If it is simply an outward identification of something inward, it wouldn't save. It would be the inward something that saves. But again, Peter expliciy says water saves. Likewise Paul said the water saved.

Best to give scripture references so we can look at context ...

 

[Runmyramble]

You deny that it's water when we have explicit statements saying it's water?

Where is the explicit?

 

[Hopeful]

So you believe that Jesus would hold Billy Grahm or Charles Manson in the same regard in performing a Baptism with each one being an equal vessel of the Holy Spirit ?

Neither is a vessel of the Holy Spirit.
You don't need to have the gift of the Holy Ghost to baptize someone.
Just look at how many churches are run by sinners, and figure out if any of their members were actually baptized?

That an unremorseful representative , and messenger of hell posing themselves as representative of Christ would have equal status of a saved Christian in the business of securing a person's salvation is as spiritually weak and feeble a construct as I can imagine.
Such a half stepping, fraught with failure theology could only be the product of the flesh .
A product of the carnal mind rather than a product of this Jesus who is the Christ .

Why do you place any emphasis on who is providing the service?
It is the person who is getting baptized and God who are to be the Giver and receiver of the grace of God.
Your POV borders on "Getting baptized in a lake is better than getting baptized in a pool".
It just doesn't matter.

I ask you if someone as poisonous & abhorrent as a Charles Manson was able to seal the deal in the emancipation of another human from eternal death to eternal life why would Christ not have given an example in His Word of such a merger of pure evil in the transfer of salvation.
Would not a scripture telling of Judas Iscariot performing a baptism leave no doubt to what you were saying if it were true?
Why is there no scripture whatsoever provided by Jesus to make clear the plausibility of combining heaven and hell working together in conjunction with His blood for successful salvation ?

Luk 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

The man is nothing, and is not a factor on God's deliverance of the washing, sanctifying, blood of Christ.
He is just a tool.

 

[Hopeful]

For me personally, when I was baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I was making a public declaration of my willingness to follow the Almighty Triune God all the days of my life. Secondly, I thought of it as symbolising a spiritual cleansing, thirdly I did it because Jesus commanded it, and fourthly I was making a public statement of my faith in front of a large number of witnesses.
.

For me, personally, it was the washing away of my sins, and the route to 1 Peter 3:21's "good conscience towards God".

 

[Hopeful]

I received the Holy Sport prior to being baptized in water. I was healed, saved, and received the Holy Spirit, then I was baptized in water as an affirmation.

Wonderful !
How long have you been freed from sin?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Neither is a vessel of the Holy Spirit.
You don't need to have the gift of the Holy Ghost to baptize someone.

So in your theology Joseph Stalin, or Adolph Hiter could be held in the same spiritual esteem by Jesus as Billy Graham in Baptizing someone ?
Again I ask :
I ask you if someone as poisonous & abhorrent as a Charles Manson was able to seal the deal in the emancipation of another human from eternal death to eternal life why would Christ not have given an example in His Word of such a merger of pure evil in the transfer of salvation.
Would not a scripture telling of Judas Iscariot performing a baptism leave no doubt to what you were saying if it were true?
Why is there no scripture whatsoever provided by Jesus to make clear the plausibility of combining heaven and hell working together in conjunction with His blood for successful salvation ?

 

[Runmyramble]

It's spiritual? What does that mean?

Not seen of the inward.....as compared to things seen. unbodily vs bodily
Noting: the things that are unseen are eternal

2 cor 4
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Spirit-unbodily personal power..DW

 

[Hopeful]

So in your theology Joseph Stalin, or Adolph Hiter could be held in the same spiritual esteem by Jesus as Billy Graham in Baptizing someone ?

"Spiritual esteem"...interesting concept...if you are a man worshipper.
It doesn't matter who does the water baptizing,

Again I ask :
I ask you if someone as poisonous & abhorrent as a Charles Manson was able to seal the deal in the emancipation of another human from eternal death to eternal life why would Christ not have given an example in His Word of such a merger of pure evil in the transfer of salvation.
Would not a scripture telling of Judas Iscariot performing a baptism leave no doubt to what you were saying if it were true?
Why is there no scripture whatsoever provided by Jesus to make clear the plausibility of combining heaven and hell working together in conjunction with His blood for successful salvation ?

You say "seal the deal" as if the administrator of baptism has some God given super power.
Why?
As for your question, anyone can "seal the deal".
If Hitler baptized someone, the end result would be between God and the baptizee.
The administrator in your hypothetical situation is superfluous.
How many evil, false preachers, are baptizing every day?
Will that in any way effect the one getting baptized?
NO.
Not immediately, at any rate.
When a truly repentant person is baptized they will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
That Spirit will alert the new convert pretty quickly, when the false preacher presents false doctrine.

 

[Cooper]

Public Declarations of faith can, and should, be made 7 days a week .
Given that you came to love & trust Jesus for His sacrifice to save you before you were baptized, is it your biblical understanding that Christ would reject your existing love for Him if you were not now baptized ?

Jesus never rejects anyone who comes to him in faith believing and without the public declaration of my faith by going through the waters of baptism I would still be saved. Perhaps what is known as a 'nominal' Christian, but being baptised was like going through another door into the presence of God.
.

 

[Cooper]

For me, personally, it was the washing away of my sins, and the route to 1 Peter 3:21's "good conscience towards God".

Yes, that is another reason to be baptised.

 

[Cooper]

So in your theology Joseph Stalin, or Adolph Hiter could be held in the same spiritual esteem by Jesus as Billy Graham in Baptizing someone ?
Again I ask :
I ask you if someone as poisonous & abhorrent as a Charles Manson was able to seal the deal in the emancipation of another human from eternal death to eternal life why would Christ not have given an example in His Word of such a merger of pure evil in the transfer of salvation.
Would not a scripture telling of Judas Iscariot performing a baptism leave no doubt to what you were saying if it were true?
Why is there no scripture whatsoever provided by Jesus to make clear the plausibility of combining heaven and hell working together in conjunction with His blood for successful salvation ?

When my father baptised people, and also when he dedicated a newborn baby to the Lord, we don't do christenings, he would always take people aside and explain the scriptures to them and pray with them, and for them. I cannot imagine Charles Manson doing that, and neither would I want him anywhere near me, never mind touching me.
.

 

[Consecrated Life]

"Spiritual esteem"...interesting concept...if you are a man worshipper.
It doesn't matter who does the water baptizing,
You say "seal the deal" as if the administrator of baptism has some God given super power.
Why?
As for your question, anyone can "seal the deal".
If Hitler baptized someone, the end result would be between God and the baptizee.
The administrator in your hypothetical situation is superfluous.
How many evil, false preachers, are baptizing every day?

Why do you think you fail so completely in your inability to provide just one single biblical example of this concept of vile unbelief and unrepentant sin performing a scared and holy rite for God's purpose ?
Is there no cause for concern in your mind that you have absolutely nothing in God's complete Word to support what you are advocating ?
Has your inability to provide even one single illuminating biblical example of this teaching caused you to search God's Word more throughly in hopes you might find one single example?
Or are you satisfied at this point that there is no example to be found ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

When my father baptised people, and also when he dedicated a newborn baby to the Lord, we don't do christenings, he would always take people aside and explain the scriptures to them and pray with them, and for them. I cannot imagine Charles Manson doing that, and neither would I want him anywhere near me, never mind touching me.
.

Given that you came to love & trust Jesus for His sacrifice to save you before you were baptized, is it your biblical understanding that Christ would reject your existing love for Him if you were not now baptized ?

 

[Runmyramble]

Where in Scripture is obedience called baptism? Of course obedience is necessary. Peter said repent and be baptized. They were to repent first. That requires obedience. However, he didn't say repent and you are baptized. He said repent and be baptized. This suggests to me that obedience and baptism are two different things.

I already said overlook this post...Because it continued to stay on when and I never finished it and popped up the next day...maybe you didn't see that.


It was notes.....I never finished nor put thoughts together the way I'd liked.

 

[Runmyramble]

Where in Scripture is obedience called baptism? Of course obedience is necessary. Peter said repent and be baptized. They were to repent first. That requires obedience. However, he didn't say repent and you are baptized. He said repent and be baptized. This suggests to me that obedience and baptism are two different things.

Interesting enough though....In my view the Baptism in first Peter....
Seems to be the Agency (that which which cleansing comes from....

Not Water in this case the Spirit and word
Now this will take some time to meditate on, but I am also sure I can google someone that's already written on it.

But off the top of the mind it's about being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Regeneration is about a new life, (or way of life) which also means a new way of thinking therefore living.

For us it's the shedding of the deeds of the flesh through obedience to the Spirit.

Recall the passage if you put away the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit you shall live.

Also recall the Spirit was pour out Abundantly...

Also whose Spirit? And when were we able to receive it?

The Spirit and the word seem to be the key...For we find in the passage that Jesus Rose from the dead and has a Living Spirit....

Think about how one has a clear conscience......and when Jesus's blood continues to cleanse...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So you asked is obedience required for continual cleansing- there's your answer.

Don't quote me here but...here's another: If thy people who are called by my name shall seek my face and turn from their wicked ways...then will I hear from heaven and heal their land.
.......................................................

Thinking outloud here
Here's a question
If to be born of God is to be born of water and Spirit and everything is created in Christ who came by water and blood
Wouldn't you think the living water, the word of God is how we are being formed? Therefore born of water and Spirit is to be born through the one that came by water and blood...another words this Special Human being bore our sins being made like us to conquer the world of death whereby God can give His Spirit to anyone who believes who He is with intent on following where by we can come to live, enjoy life in a new way.

 

[JLB]

It is when we are baptised with water that our spiritual rebirth happens. Born again of water and the Spirit.

The scripture in John 3:5 never mentions being “born again of water”.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5

Born of water. Not “born again” of water.

Jesus is using “earthly things” to teach Nicodemus about heavenly things. Jesus is teaching about being born of the Spirit, so He uses natural birth to teach about spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


Being born of the Spirit is a reference to being born again.

In order to be born again of spiritual birth, one must first be born of natural birth.


IOW in order to be born “again” one must first be born.


Born of water refers to natural birth.

Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.

Jesus plainly states this in the next verse (v.6).


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Born of flesh refers to natural birth; born of water.

Born of the Sprit refers to spiritual birth.

The contextual subject is about birth; spiritual and natural birth.

Water baptism is about death.





JLB

 

[JLB]

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. [10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. [11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

Best to give scripture references so we can look at context ...

Yes, John uses the same reference to water to refer to the natural birth process.


We all came by water, only Jesus came by water and blood, which is a reference to the virgin birth.




JLB

 

[Mungo]

The scripture in John 3:5 never mentions being “born again of water”.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5

Born of water. Not “born again” of water.

Jesus is using “earthly things” to teach Nicodemus about heavenly things. Jesus is teaching about being born of the Spirit, so He uses natural birth to teach about spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


Being born of the Spirit is a reference to being born again.

In order to be born again of spiritual birth, one must first be born of natural birth.


IOW in order to be born “again” one must first be born.


Born of water refers to natural birth.

Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.

Jesus plainly states this in the next verse (v.6).


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Born of flesh refers to natural birth; born of water.

Born of the Sprit refers to spiritual birth.

The contextual subject is about birth; spiritual and natural birth.

Water baptism is about death.





JLB

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew,[footnote says or from above I'm going to use from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode′mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:3-5)

The King James Bible and NIV use the term “born again” rather than born from above. The Greek word anathonen in the New Testament is normally translated from above, although it can mean again. In the KJV it is only translated again in this one passage, otherwise it is translated from above. So this usage which is so crucial to the fundamentalist/evangelical notion of being “born again” seems somewhat dubious.

Jesus’ interplay with Nicodemus relies to some extent on this double usage, with Jesus meaning born from above, but Nicodemus taking it as born again and not understanding how he could be born twice literally. Moreover the born from above ties in with Jesus being the one who comes from above (verse 31).]

A full analysis of Jn 3:3-10
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
- or born again; it involves a rebirth, a second birth

4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
- Nicodemus is thinking of physical birth

5. Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

6. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

7. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
8. The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9. Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood

10. Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”
- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
You see water and spirit.

Moreover Nicodemus should have understood that on previous occasions when God makes a new start he does so with water and Spirit:

1. At creation – Gen 1:1-2
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

2. With the flood (Gen 7/8) God used water to cleanse the earth, then as the water subsided Noah sent out a dove “And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. “ (Gen 8:11). The dove is a symbol of the Holy Spirit (cf Mt 3:16)

3. When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt to make them his people under a new covenant he took them through the waters of the red sea and protected them by a pillar of cloud and fire (the Holy Spirit) – see also 1Cor 10:2

4. Jesus, the new Adam is baptised in water and after that the Holy Spirit descends on him (Mt 3:13-16)

You see, each time water and spirit.

Immediately after this conversation with Nicodemus Jesus and his disciples go baptising with water. A co-incidence? I think not.

So where does that leave
Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5)

Clearly baptism with water.

 

[Cooper]

Given that you came to love & trust Jesus for His sacrifice to save you before you were baptized, is it your biblical understanding that Christ would reject your existing love for Him if you were not now baptized ?

Whether baptised or not, those who follow the saviour all the days of their life are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus eternally.
.

 

[Walpole]

Baptism is the normative means by which God brings people to newness of life (Romans 6:4). It means the old life and person has died in baptism and is made new, born again (John 3:5). This belief is based on all the baptism texts of Scripture, which say baptism "forgives sins" (Acts 2:38), "washes sin away" (Acts 22:16), "regenerates" (Titus 3:4-7), "buries, unites us to Christ, and frees us from sin" (Romans 6:1-10), was typified in the Israelites crossing the Red Sea (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) and yes, "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21).


In Christianity, matter...matters. Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus Noah and his family were saved from sin through the waters of the deluge.


Hence St. Peter draws the parallel between the saving waters of the deluge for Noah and that of the saving waters of baptism for you and I. However, he goes through the trouble of the exclusion, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" to demonstrate the effects of the waters of baptism act not on the exterior (washing the flesh), but rather interiorly, on the conscience and soul of man. If you want to cleanse your flesh, you take a bath. If you want to cleanse your soul, you get baptized. Baptism, by definition, necessitates water. Yet water by itself is not a baptism and it exercises no power on its own; for it is but a material sign of what is communicated spiritually. It is only with the Holy Spirit does it become baptism. For baptism requires water and the Spirit. (cf. John 3:5)