What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[Mungo]

John 3:4-6: Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?" Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Nicodemus is clearly talking about natural birth (from the mother's womb). Notice: Jesus did not say anything like "that is not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about baptism". He did say "what is born of the flesh is flesh". This clearly refers to natural birth. It is not referring to baptism. If it is, Jesus would have said so.

A full analysis of Jn 3:3-10
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
- or born again; it involves a rebirth, a second birth

4. Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot re-enter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
- Nicodemus is thinking of physical birth

5. Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
- Jesus is telling Nicodemus this is a different kind of birth, a birth of water and Spirit. He is not saying there are two births, one of water and one of Spirit, but that the new birth, the rebirth, is by water and Spirit.

6. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
- the natural birth is of the flesh, but the rebirth is of the spirit (but is effected by water and spirit)

7. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’
8. The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9. Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”
- Nicodemus hasn’t understood

10. Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?”
- Nicodemus is a scholar – he should have understood the words of Ez 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
You see water and spirit.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Clearly you do not understand baptism.
It's not just being submerged in water.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
belief + baptism = salvation
That is the formuala that Jesus gave us.

Wrong !
Your salvation is not in effect until you have completed the three step ritual Jesus commanded .
You have fallen short of salvation by one vital step commanded by Jesus
By completing only two of the three salvation steps Jesus commanded in His own Word means you have left yourself short of salvation and in great spiritual jeopardy .
You had better drink up, and drink up soon, or else !

Belief + Baptism + Hydration = salvation

Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[Walpole]

Can you give a foundational scripture to back up God's use of someone unbelieving, unrepentant of sin, void of all virtue to accomplish something holy on behalf of another ?
I would accept any bible example constant with the aforementioned components , it does not have to be baptism ?

A quick example is the pagan Persian King Cyrus. He allowed the Jews to return from 70 years in captivity, rebuilt the temple for them and restored the temple treasures.

 

[Walpole]

There is no need to go to Romans to define baptism in the context of John 3. Just look at the fuller context of John 3:5-6, namely, John 3:3-23:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (ESV)

Notice the parallelism. In verse 5, Jesus appears to be just expanding on what he means in verse 3. That is, to be "born again" is to be "born of water and the Spirit." When we look at the rest of the passage, it is interesting that after Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus, it changes to Jesus and his disciples baptizing (vs. 22; see also 4:1-2). And we know it was with water because John the Baptist was baptizing in water (vs. 23); it also wouldn't make sense otherwise.

All that to say that it is most likely that "born of water" is speaking of water baptism, a baptism of repentance.

Good post!

To your point, lest there be any doubt about what Jesus told Nicodemus, after this encounter, St. John tells us Jesus and the Apostles baptize and even puts the setting in Aenon!

 

[Cooper]

Wrong !
Your salvation is not in effect until you have completed the three step ritual Jesus commanded .
You have fallen short of salvation by one vital step commanded by Jesus
By completing only two of the three salvation steps Jesus commanded in His own Word means you have left yourself short of salvation and in great spiritual jeopardy .
You had better drink up, and drink up soon, or else !

Belief + Baptism + Hydration = salvation

Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

On John 4:14.
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him,.... Meaning, the Spirit and his grace; see Joh_7:38; and which he more than once speaks of, as his gift here, and in the context: of which, whoever truly partakes,
shall never thirst; either after sinful lusts and pleasures, and his former vicious way of living, which he now disrelishes: not but there are desires and lustings after carnal things in regenerate persons, as there were lustings in the Israelites, after the onions, garlic, and flesh pots in Egypt, when they were come out from thence; yet these are not so strong, prevalent, and predominant; they are checked and restrained by the grace of God; so that they do not hanker after sin as they did, nor drink up iniquity like water, or commit sin with greediness, as before: or else it means thirsting after the grace of God; thirsty persons are invited to take and drink of the water of life freely, and are pronounced blessed; and it is promised, that they shall be filled, or satisfied; yet not so in this life, that they shall never thirst or desire more; for as they need more grace, and it is promised them, they thirst after it, and desire it; and the more they taste and partake of it, the more they desire it: but the sense is, either as some read the words, "they shall not thirst for ever"; though they may for a time, and be in a distressed condition for want of a supply of it, yet they shall always; God will open rivers and fountains for them, and give drink to his people, his chosen; and the other state, they shall hunger and thirst no more; for the Lamb shall lead them to fountains of living waters: or rather, they shall never thirst, so as to be like the thirsty and parched earth, dried up, and have no moisture in them; for however this may seem sometimes to be their case, God will, and does, pour out water and floods upon them; yea, that grace which is infused into their souls, is an abundant and an abiding principle, which will preserve them from languishing, so as to perish:
but the water that I shall give him, shall be in him a well of water; which denotes the plenty of it; for the grace of God given at conversion is exceeding abundant, it superabounds all the aboundings of sin; it comes in large flows into the hearts of regenerate persons, and flows out of them, as rivers of living water: and which also abides, for it continues springing up into everlasting life: it is a seed which remains, an immortal and never dying principle; it is inseparably connected with eternal life; it is the beginning of it, and it issues in it; whoever has grace, shall have glory; and whoever are called, sanctified, justified, and pardoned, shall be glorified: such is the nature, influence, and use of this living water, in Christ's gift: the words of the law are, in the Targum on Son_4:15 compared to a well of living water. (John Gill)

 

[Cooper]

Rivers of Living Water
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Rivers of living water mean the Holy Spirit comes flooding in, and when we let Christ take control of our life the Holy Spirit enters in, and where the Holy Spirit is, there are Rivers of Living water.
.

 

[Consecrated Life]

A quick example is the pagan Persian King Cyrus. He allowed the Jews to return from 70 years in captivity, rebuilt the temple for them and restored the temple treasures.

A very pathetic example on your part in comparing the miserable replacement temple God allowed them in a continued rebuking with the ultimate and eternal reward contained in God's promised salvation.
However your poor example does lend more clarity in explaining your obsession with the earthly and fleshly elements in connection to salvation.
The second temple was an empty shell compared to the first and the Jews wept over the low grade spiritless nature of it
Just As God intended them to.

No Ark in the Second Temple​

Thus, the Holy of Holies in the Second Temple was an empty chamber, without the Ark of the Covenant. When the Roman General Pompey conquered Jerusalem around 63 B.C., he demanded the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies. When he did, he came out saying that he could not understand what all the interest was about the sanctuary, when it was only an empty room.

 

[Mungo]

Wrong !
Your salvation is not in effect until you have completed the three step ritual Jesus commanded .
You have fallen short of salvation by one vital step commanded by Jesus
By completing only two of the three salvation steps Jesus commanded in His own Word means you have left yourself short of salvation and in great spiritual jeopardy .
You had better drink up, and drink up soon, or else !

Belief + Baptism + Hydration = salvation

Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The water that Jesus promised to give is "living water" - see verse 10
“If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”

When Jesus says "living water" he is referring to the Spirit.
On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and proclaimed, “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:37-39)
That Spirit is given to us in baptism.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. (1Cor 12:13)

 

[jaybo]

Clearly you do not understand baptism.
It's not just being submerged in water.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
belief + baptism = salvation
That is the formuala that Jesus gave us.

As Peter wrote: Baptism..... now saves you.

It's easy to take a verse from here and a verse from there (out-of-context) to "prove" a predetermined doctrine. Without belief one cannot be saved, but one can be saved without the ritual of baptism. If that wasn't the case, then all the people who came to John had no need of Jesus.

It's clear that you have a certain "truth" that you believe (even if it doesn't agree with Scripture). Fine; enjoy it. I believe the Bible, not the teachings of men. Sola scriptura.

 

[Walpole]

A very pathetic example on your part in comparing the miserable replacement temple God allowed them in a continued rebuking with the ultimate and eternal reward contained in God's promised salvation.
However your poor example does lend more clarity in explaining your obsession with the earthly and fleshly elements in connection to salvation.
The second temple was an empty shell compared to the first and the Jews wept over the low grade spiritless nature of it
Just As God intended them to.

No Ark in the Second Temple​

Thus, the Holy of Holies in the Second Temple was an empty chamber, without the Ark of the Covenant. When the Roman General Pompey conquered Jerusalem around 63 B.C., he demanded the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies. When he did, he came out saying that he could not understand what all the interest was about the sanctuary, when it was only an empty room.

Moving the goal post already? You asked for an example and I gave you one. Of the pagan Cyrus, God said...

"who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd,
and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’
and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’” - Isaiah 44:28


As for your objection to "earthly and fleshy elements", I find that quite odd given that they are part of God's plan for salvation. After all, God entered into His creation and took on...FLESH. Christianity is a religion based on the Incarnation!

Thus, in Christianity, matter...matters. E.g. Water, spittle, mud, salt, bread, wine, flesh, wood, blood...

 

[Mungo]

It's easy to take a verse from here and a verse from there (out-of-context) to "prove" a predetermined doctrine. Without belief one cannot be saved, but one can be saved without the ritual of baptism. If that wasn't the case, then all the people who came to John had no need of Jesus.

"Without belief one cannot be saved"
I agree with that.
As Jesus said
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
belief + baptism = salvation
That is the formula that Jesus gave us.

It's clear that you have a certain "truth" that you believe (even if it doesn't agree with Scripture). Fine; enjoy it. I believe the Bible, not the teachings of men. Sola scriptura.

That is why I look at ALL scripture but not just the bits that fit my opinions.

 

[Walpole]

It's easy to take a verse from here and a verse from there (out-of-context) to "prove" a predetermined doctrine. Without belief one cannot be saved, but one can be saved without the ritual of baptism. If that wasn't the case, then all the people who came to John had no need of Jesus.

It's clear that you have a certain "truth" that you believe (even if it doesn't agree with Scripture). Fine; enjoy it. I believe the Bible, not the teachings of men. Sola scriptura.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" - 1 Peter 3:21

"Baptism does not save anyone" - You


So much for sola Scriptura...

 

[Consecrated Life]

On John 4:14.
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him,.... Meaning, the Spirit

Water means water.
You need to have your water and drink it too.
Just as Jesus commanded you to drink the water .
Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

And your failure to drink the water that Jesus commanded must be drunk to obtain eternal life is the reason behind your insecurity in only having washed with the water .
Failing to drink this water that Jesus commanded you to drink in scripture has left you insufficient of completing the 3 step process .
You should drink the water not just wash in it , completing salvation step 3 as urgently as possible.

 

[Free]

John 3:4-6: Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?" Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Nicodemus is clearly talking about natural birth (from the mother's womb). Notice: Jesus did not say anything like "that is not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about baptism". He did say "what is born of the flesh is flesh". This clearly refers to natural birth. It is not referring to baptism. If it is, Jesus would have said so.

You, too, are leaving out verse 3 and the rest of the context I gave, namely, verses 22 and 23.

Jesus first says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then, Nicodemus responds, not understanding what Jesus was saying, thinking that it had something to do with physical birth. Jesus corrects Nicodemus and explains that being "born again" is to be "born of water and the Spirit."

While, yes, "what is born of the flesh is flesh" refers to natural birth, Jesus is not equating that with "born of water." He is merely answering Nicodemus's question, "Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”.

On the one hand, for Jesus to say that one has to physically be born in order to enter the kingdom of God, would go without saying for those who are born. It would be to communicate nothing of importance. But notice also that "what is born of the flesh is flesh." This precludes any understanding that physical birth is a necessary requirement to enter the kingdom of God. Flesh must be reborn by the Spirit; that is rather the whole point.

On the other hand, it would mean that all children lost to abortion and miscarriage could not enter the kingdom of God. But that would be to deny that they are full human persons, which is unbiblical.

 

[Cooper]

Water means water.
You need to have your water and drink it too.
Just as Jesus commanded you to drink the water .
Jhn 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

And your failure to drink the water that Jesus commanded must be drunk to obtain eternal life is the reason behind your insecurity in only having washed with the water .
Failing to drink this water that Jesus commanded you to drink in scripture has left you insufficient of completing the 3 step process .
You should drink the water not just wash in it , completing salvation step 3 as urgently as possible.

What do you mean, I haven't drunk from the well of living water?

John 6:35 - Jesus the Bread of Life

Jesus answered, I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.

biblehub.com

This is Christ's gift of eternal life that is freely given to all those who believe in him and accept him as their Lord and Saviour.
.

 

[Hopeful]

Why do you think you fail so completely in your inability to provide just one single biblical example of this concept of vile unbelief and unrepentant sin performing a scared and holy rite for God's purpose ?
Is there no cause for concern in your mind that you have absolutely nothing in God's complete Word to support what you are advocating ?
Has your inability to provide even one single illuminating biblical example of this teaching caused you to search God's Word more throughly in hopes you might find one single example?
Or are you satisfied at this point that there is no example to be found ?

Why?
Because vile, unrepentant sinners, didn't do any baptisms in the bible.
That seems to be a more modern epidemic.
Of all those now doing baptisms, how many do you suppose are non-sinners?
They are the truly repentant.
That doesn't mean that all those baptized by sinners are automatically un-baptized.
Does it?

 

[Hopeful]

The scripture in John 3:5 never mentions being “born again of water”.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5

Born of water. Not “born again” of water.

Jesus is using “earthly things” to teach Nicodemus about heavenly things. Jesus is teaching about being born of the Spirit, so He uses natural birth to teach about spiritual birth.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12


Being born of the Spirit is a reference to being born again.
In order to be born again of spiritual birth, one must first be born of natural birth.
IOW in order to be born “again” one must first be born.
Born of water refers to natural birth.
Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth.
Jesus plainly states this in the next verse (v.6).
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6
Born of flesh refers to natural birth; born of water.
Born of the Sprit refers to spiritual birth.
The contextual subject is about birth; spiritual and natural birth.

Water baptism is about death.

I agree with all that, but I question your meaning on the last sentence..."Water baptism is about death."
Care to elaborate?

 

[Hopeful]

Whether baptised or not, those who follow the saviour all the days of their life are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus eternally.
.

Without water baptism, your old man is not killed and buried with Christ. (Rom 6:3-5)
That not having happened, neither are you raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
And you certainly won't be free from sin. (Rom 6:6-7)

 

[Hopeful]

You, too, are leaving out verse 3 and the rest of the context I gave, namely, verses 22 and 23.

Jesus first says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then, Nicodemus responds, not understanding what Jesus was saying, thinking that it had something to do with physical birth. Jesus corrects Nicodemus and explains that being "born again" is to be "born of water and the Spirit."

While, yes, "what is born of the flesh is flesh" refers to natural birth, Jesus is not equating that with "born of water." He is merely answering Nicodemus's question, "Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”.

On the one hand, for Jesus to say that one has to physically be born in order to enter the kingdom of God, would go without saying for those who are born. It would be to communicate nothing of importance. But notice also that "what is born of the flesh is flesh." This precludes any understanding that physical birth is a necessary requirement to enter the kingdom of God. Flesh must be reborn by the Spirit; that is rather the whole point.

On the other hand, it would mean that all children lost to abortion and miscarriage could not enter the kingdom of God. But that would be to deny that they are full human persons, which is unbiblical.

I think applying Jesus' lesson to the unborn and miscarried goes a little too far.

 

[Cooper]

Without water baptism, your old man is not killed and buried with Christ. (Rom 6:3-5)
That not having happened, neither are you raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
And you certainly won't be free from sin. (Rom 6:6-7)

Right, Go through the waters of baptism in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
.