"What must I do to be saved?"

[brakelite2]

Hi Solo, I understand I think that you are of the OSAS persuasion. Allow me to speak from experience. I received Jesus into my life at age 24. I was baptised in a AOG church and remained with that communion of believers for many years. In the meantime I was married, had children, and moved town a couple of times. Always loving my Savior, reading my Bible, and trusting in His shed blood for the remission of my sins.

Sadly however, for a number of reasons, (eg dissatisfaction with local fellowship, unanswered doubts re certain doctrinal points, and cares of this world,) both my wife and I fell away. Fell so far my friend that I returned to my old dope habit, and in a new career move decided to grow again. Now trust me, I was lost. I was no longer trusting in the salvation so graciously provided for me nor was I any more abiding in the vine, Jesus Christ. He was no longer on the throne of me heart, I had again taken over the reigns of my life, the carnal nature was resurrected and my spiritual life dead.

It wasn't until I was 45 yo and like the prodigal son, "came to myself" and returned to My Savior. Believe me, I was born again twice. And I praise God every day and thank Him for His grace and patience and willingness to forgive. He remained faithful and loving, I was unfaithful. His faithfulness in love however does not mean that my salvation was still secure.

 

[shad]

double

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo, I understand I think that you are of the OSAS persuasion. Allow me to speak from experience. I received Jesus into my life at age 24. I was baptised in a AOG church and remained with that communion of believers for many years. In the meantime I was married, had children, and moved town a couple of times. Always loving my Savior, reading my Bible, and trusting in His shed blood for the remission of my sins.

Sadly however, for a number of reasons, (eg dissatisfaction with local fellowship, unanswered doubts re certain doctrinal points, and cares of this world,) both my wife and I fell away. Fell so far my friend that I returned to my old dope habit, and in a new career move decided to grow again. Now trust me, I was lost. I was no longer trusting in the salvation so graciously provided for me nor was I any more abiding in the vine, Jesus Christ. He was no longer on the throne of me heart, I had again taken over the reigns of my life, the carnal nature was resurrected and my spiritual life dead.

It wasn't until I was 45 yo and like the prodigal son, "came to myself" and returned to My Savior. Believe me, I was born again twice. And I praise God every day and thank Him for His grace and patience and willingness to forgive. He remained faithful and loving, I was unfaithful. His faithfulness in love however does not mean that my salvation was still secure.

A born again believer that falls back into sin does not lose his/her salvation; but only is in the terrible position of being chasetized by the Lord. Those who are born again can either walk in the flesh and be destroyed in this physical life or walk in the Spirit transforming into the likeness of their Redeemer and Savior. One who is born of God is sealed until the day of redemption by God himself. Believe it or not.

 

[Drew]

A born again believer that falls back into sin does not lose his/her salvation; but only is in the terrible position of being chasetized by the Lord. Those who are born again can either walk in the flesh and be destroyed in this physical life or walk in the Spirit transforming into the likeness of their Redeemer and Savior. One who is born of God is sealed until the day of redemption by God himself. Believe it or not.

I think there are a number of problems with this.

1. We have texts like Romans 2;6-7 which rather clearly establish a "causal" relationship between our "good works" and our eternal destiny:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As people who actually read my posts before commenting on them will know, this does not place me in a situation where I deny "salvation by faith". But that's another story. In any event, I think that Paul means what he says here.

2. I suggest that you have no Scriptural case for this idea that a born again person can "walk in the flesh". I think that you are implicitly accepting a "fleshly part" / "spiritual part" distinction in the Christian that the scriptures do not support.

3. I suspect that you have an "a priori" commitment to the notion that "salvation" is a discrete one time event. And yet Paul speaks about salvation in all three tenses - past, present, and future. Complicated? Yes. But we need to let Paul be Paul and figure out his arguably "tense-based" model of salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Solo, I understand I think that you are of the OSAS persuasion. Allow me to speak from experience. I received Jesus into my life at age 24. I was baptised in a AOG church and remained with that communion of believers for many years. In the meantime I was married, had children, and moved town a couple of times. Always loving my Savior, reading my Bible, and trusting in His shed blood for the remission of my sins.

Sadly however, for a number of reasons, (eg dissatisfaction with local fellowship, unanswered doubts re certain doctrinal points, and cares of this world,) both my wife and I fell away. Fell so far my friend that I returned to my old dope habit, and in a new career move decided to grow again. Now trust me, I was lost. I was no longer trusting in the salvation so graciously provided for me nor was I any more abiding in the vine, Jesus Christ. He was no longer on the throne of me heart, I had again taken over the reigns of my life, the carnal nature was resurrected and my spiritual life dead.

It wasn't until I was 45 yo and like the prodigal son, "came to myself" and returned to My Savior. Believe me, I was born again twice. And I praise God every day and thank Him for His grace and patience and willingness to forgive. He remained faithful and loving, I was unfaithful. His faithfulness in love however does not mean that my salvation was still secure.

A born again believer that falls back into sin does not lose his/her salvation; but only is in the terrible position of being chasetized by the Lord. Those who are born again can either walk in the flesh and be destroyed in this physical life or walk in the Spirit transforming into the likeness of their Redeemer and Savior. One who is born of God is sealed until the day of redemption by God himself. Believe it or not.

Poppycock and more sophism.

2 Peter 2 says this condition is worse than before... How can a chastisement be WORSE THAN NEVER BEING SAVED???

The guy was saved, as even you do not deny. UNLESS he returned, he is doomed... If he returned, it was a chastisement. If he doesn't return, he will be condemned, since one must BELIEVE, NOW to enter Heaven.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Joh 10:1
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber;

Joh 10:2
but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Joh 10:9
I am the door; if any one enters by me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

francis. Since, according to 2 Peter 2, Peter is talking about false teachers, and we know they are not shepherds but thieves and robbers, as Jesus said, then why do you say they were saved? Did they become false teachers after hearing the truth? Ok. Perhaps the truth didn't do them any good, as Peter said, 'forsaking the right way they have gone astray.' But were they not thieves and robbers to begin with? The enemy has sown weeds among the wheat. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. The weeds are the false teachers - the ones who choke the word.

John wrote, 'many antichrists have come. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that all are not of us.' 1 John 2:18-19 So these men were not of God to begin with. That's what was plainly seen.

And Paul wrote, 'For land (soil) which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it (the word of the kingdom), and brings forth vegetation (fruit) useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.' Heb. 6:7-8

So when they heard the truth, they had life, but the life in them was thorn and thistle - meaning they were the sons of the evil one; the devil's children; not of God.

The question is, were they saved because they sprang up? Jesus said they would spring up on account of the word. But were they saved? I think you're assuming too much. I wouldn't say so. But perhaps. Let's say they were saved through their belief, and then they fell away. Ok. I agree. That's what Jesus said. And I appreciate your warnings about sin. Sin can harden the heart so that it doesn't receive the rain. Like I said, I'm trying to be objective. This doesn't mean you can ignore the promise or make it conditional, because if you don't hold fast the promise, then your faith isn't worth anything. It's the promise. If they believe Christ will not lose any of them, and they do as he said, then they will receive the reward. Right? But didn't you hear? He said he wouldn't lose any of his flock. Those who hear it receive it with joy. Ok Many will fall away. But those who are ordained to life, or predestined, believe. Not that they cannot fall into unbelief, but they will not. They will be saved - by an act of God. Jesus said God will shorten the time of tribulation. But that's not to say you're not right about the warnings.

 

[francisdesales]

francis. Since, according to 2 Peter 2, Peter is talking about false teachers, and we know they are not shepherds but thieves and robbers, as Jesus said, then why do you say they were saved?

We've been through this, and frankly, you are boring me with your apparent inability to read... Your denial of what the Scriptures clear say is disheartening to someone trying to point out such obvious things. "Why bother...?", I continue to ask myself.

Read 2 Peter 2:20-22. What part of it don't you get?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

What part of "escaping the pollutions of the world ...and they AGAIN entangle therein..." don't you understand???

Please. This is not about "false teachers", but ANYONE who escapes sin and falls into it again. ONLY the SAVED escape sin, escape the pollutions of the world.

The latter end is worse than before. Tell me. How are you going to look in the mirror and pretend that this does not say what it says?

People fall away, the latter being worse than if they had NEVER escaped the pollutions of sin.

OSAS is dead. Accept the Word of God.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

I'm sorry I'm boring you but this is very important.

Not all who believe are saved. Not all who say, 'Lord, Lord' are saved. You know that don't you?

Don't go reading your own assumptions into Peter's letter. He is talking about false teachers. See the word, 'false teachers'? 2 Pet. 2:1 Jesus warned about false teachers. Peter is not talking about being saved; it's not about falling into unbelief. I'm saying, for your benefit, it's not about belief or unbelief.

It's about going 'astray'. See the word' 'astray'? 2 Pet. 2 :15 It's about immorality, specifically, the lust of defiling passion and greed. Peter says they have followed the way of Balaam (who took money for his cursing and blessing). What you don't understand is that you are raining condemnation on yourselves when you do such things and teach other people to do them. In the past, the RCC sold indulgences. The teachers still make statues and worship idols and teach men to do so. And there is immorality in the teachers. The important point is that the teachers are false.

You don't have to be a believer to escape sin, though I agree, in this case, knowing the truth, Peter says they escaped. But all you have to do is believe something is wrong to escape it, for a time, temporarily. Even the godless have ethics.

But yes, there is a principle involved; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. So if you're arguing for the principle, then I agree; they were once again enslaved. But as an argument that they were saved, I don't know. It's not the point of the letter.

 

[francisdesales]

I'm sorry I'm boring you but this is very important.

Not all who believe are saved. Not all who say, 'Lord, Lord' are saved. You know that don't you?

Yes, that is my point... Not all who believe today will be enter the Kingdom.

Don't go reading your own assumptions into Peter's letter. He is talking about false teachers. See the word, 'false teachers'? 2 Pet. 2:1 Jesus warned about false teachers. Peter is not talking about being saved; it's not about falling into unbelief. I'm saying, for your benefit, it's not about belief or unbelief.

So only false teachers can fall away into the "vomit of their former lives"???

Hardly. 2 Peter 2:2 says people follow their damnable teachings. These people will speak badly about the WAY. They are in the same boat as the false teachers. BOTH had received illumination, BOTH had escaped the pollutions of the world. And BOTH will suffer the fate of the damned, being worse off than before, IF they do not repent.

You present a distinction that is just not there. Of course, Peter attacks the false teachers, but he does not give their followers a free pass to heaven. THEY ALSO are condemned. 2 Peter 2:4-7 makes that clear. Were ONLY the "false preachers" in the time of Noah killed during the flood? Were ONLY the "false preachers" killed in Sodom and Gomorrah???

NO! EVERYONE, leader and follower of sin, is condemned.

This simple fact makes your whole point smoke and mirrors by setting up some sort of artificial buffer between the believer and the false teacher. A believer no longer is a believer if they fall from the Way.

It is inconsequential if they had ONCE been saved from sin. Returning to sin brings condemnation.

It's about going 'astray'. See the word' 'astray'? 2 Pet. 2 :15 It's about immorality, specifically, the lust of defiling passion and greed. Peter says they have followed the way of Balaam (who took money for his cursing and blessing). What you don't understand is that you are raining condemnation on yourselves when you do such things and teach other people to do them.

No, I am correcting your misunderstandings of the Scriptures. This passage tells us that false teachers are pulling part of the flock away. Both the false teachers, the wolves, AND the flock will be condemned, BECAUSE THEY RETURN TO THEIR PAST LIVES! Do you think only the false teachers are living in sin, returning to the past lives of sin? No, so are the followers. The point Peter is making is that returning to sin is a damnable thing, making void the salvation they had previously received, if they continue in it.

In the past, the RCC sold indulgences. The teachers still make statues and worship idols and teach men to do so. And there is immorality in the teachers. The important point is that the teachers are false.

More incorrect musings of a false teacher. The Church didn't sell "indulgences". Catholics don't worship idols or teach men to. There is immorality among ALL types of people, including you and me. The important point is that you are teaching a false gospel...

You don't have to be a believer to escape sin, though I agree, in this case, knowing the truth, Peter says they escaped.

Mark, I am really beginning to think you cannot read very well. I have posted this passage so many times, and you still don't get the simple words, do you...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

Stop living in denial. It says they escaped sin by the knowing of the Christ. They were saved from sin by baptism and they returned to the vomit, making void the salvation they once received.

OSAS is dead.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Jesus Christ says, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:14-16)

According to Jesus Christ, those who believe in Him have eternal life. If one can lose their salvation, they do not have eternal life; therefore, the eternal salvation given to those who believe and are born again is eternally secure according to the words of Jesus Christ. Those who claim that God's salvation is not eternal and secure are calling Jesus Christ a liar.

 

[Cornelius]

Why is it , that when I read on Christian forums (when they talk about what to do , to be saved) then the answers reflect that most believe that we are just so similar to the Jews.

1) Jews had a set of rules to keep
2) Christians has a set of rules to keep
3) Jews could not do it
4) Christians cannot do it either.

So why did God change the Covenant if we have to follow the same pattern of failure. Why did God not just do the crucifixion thing straight after Adam and let the people start walking this life of defeat and failure then and there?

Why did He not give the Jews the same sloppy grace that He gives us today? I mean they were His chosen people and surely they deserved more than the Gentiles. Why do WE get to do as we please and get forgiven and the chosen gets to die in their sins?

Why is out walk today (our failures) just a repeat of those of the Jews?

C

 

[francisdesales]

According to Jesus Christ, those who believe in Him have eternal life. If one can lose their salvation, they do not have eternal life;

You are confused on what eternal life is. Eternal life is Christ HIMSELF abiding within us. If Christ no longer abides in you (for example, willfully disobeying God's commandments), you do not have eternal life anymore...

therefore, the eternal salvation given to those who believe and are born again is eternally secure according to the words of Jesus Christ. Those who claim that God's salvation is not eternal and secure are calling Jesus Christ a liar.

"Eternally secure"? I am not familiar with that concept used in Scriptures, except applied to those already in heaven. Where does the Bible say that once I believe, I will always believe? What exactly is the need of "hope" in that twisted scenario?

And secondly, you seem to be confused with "salvation", projecting that one-time forgiveness of sins to eternal life in heaven. They are not the same thing.

This is not a matter of calling Jesus a liar, but realizing you are incorrectly interpreting Scriptures, potentially to your destruction. "Beware lest you fall"

Regards

 

[brakelite2]

Jesus Christ says, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:14-16)

According to Jesus Christ, those who believe in Him have eternal life.

Adam and Eve had eternal life also, but was it not also conditional on obedience, continuing faithfulness, and abiding in the truth? The tree of life that was in the garden was their source of life, they had to partake of it to live. Jesus is our tree of life. We must partake of Him in order to have life. They failed, and lost their 'eternal' lives. We all need food to survive. We need spiritual food to survive as much as physical. The Bread of life, the Word of life.

I do believe that through repentance, Adam and Eve regained it. Eternal life is not 'secure' until the consummation of all things. That does not mean that the promise of God is of no effect, His promises are sure, but that does not take away the conditionality of those promises. All the promises of God are conditional. Have a quick look through the OT and the number of times the following thoughts are repeated, "if you ... I shall...". As I said in my short testimony, I once had life; I was feeding from the 'tree of life' the 'bread of life', Jesus. But when I went back to the former vomit and passions of the past, I was no longer feeding from that tree nor was I any longer abiding in Christ. I was no longer trusting (believing) in Him and my works, (by which we shall all be judged) gave ample evidence of my infidelity. I am a living testimony not only to the grace of God in that He accepted me back into His family once again, but testimony also to the unfaithfulness of man, the fickleness of our convictions, and the weakness of our resolve. That is why it is so essential we die daily to the flesh and feed the spirit so to avoid the dangers of apostasy.

If one can lose their salvation, they do not have eternal life; therefore, the eternal salvation given to those who believe and are born again is eternally secure according to the words of Jesus Christ. Those who claim that God's salvation is not eternal and secure are calling Jesus Christ a liar.

I heard it preached by a minister who advocates as you do the OSAS position, and this from the pulpit, that he could lay down his Bible, walk out into the street and mow down several people with an M16 and still be saved. In effect he was claiming that his choices in life had no effect on God's promises. Nonsense.

 

[Cornelius]

Adam and Eve had eternal life also, but was it not also conditional on obedience, continuing faithfulness, and abiding in the truth? The tree of life that was in the garden was their source of life, they had to partake of it to live.

Abraham too had eternal life and we know that Moses and Elijah appeared on the mountain with Jesus. They too had eternal life before the crucifixion.

So since they had eternal life before...........what did Jesus came to do, that did not happen to Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses and Elijah ?

 

[XTruth]

Adam and Eve had eternal life also, but was it not also conditional on obedience, continuing faithfulness, and abiding in the truth? The tree of life that was in the garden was their source of life, they had to partake of it to live.

Abraham too had eternal life and we know that Moses and Elijah appeared on the mountain with Jesus. They too had eternal life before the crucifixion.

So since they had eternal life before...........what did Jesus came to do, that did not happen to Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses and Elijah ?

1) Take away all sins committed instead of them just being covered (Rom.3:25; 1 Jn.3:5)
2) Atone for all sins past, present, and future so that there would be no more need for blood sacrifice (Heb.10:10-18; Col.2:14-17; 1 Pt.2:24).
3) Unite the righteous captives in the center of the earth to God since their sins were now all taken away (Eph.4:7-11; Acts 2:27; Ps.16:10; 68:18; Mat.12:40; Heb.2:14-15; 12:23).

 

[XTruth]

Solo is actually correct in believing what I believe. We are all usually born again more than once, unless you are like the man on the cross that died moments later (Lk.23:43). To be born again is to be born of the Spirit, we all agree. But the first time this happens is actually something that we were once before...thus doing it again. All Christians who are born again have been born of the Spirit once before...all man-kind has. When we were all made unrighteous by the sin of one (Rom.5:12-21)....This means we were all made righteous when he was righteous, for all of man-kind was in his loins. I'll post more after work later this evening.

OK, then, first, I apologize to Solo for my comments. I hadn't realized you were pitching "multiple re-births" of the Spirit. I guess I missed where you made those comments.

I would be interested in your Scriptural evidence of multiple rebirths, since Scriptures only mention one rebirth by the Spirit. Hebrews makes it clear that we cannot undergo that experience again. I do not believe it is necessary to hold to that concept - while understanding that even the regenerated man can fall and come back to the Lord. Repentance does not require a "re-birth".

Regards

The following is what I read and I have never read that one can only be born again once...where is that? And how are you able to believe one can be born again and condemned at the same time?

First the definition "AGAIN." From the Greek word "palin," which means: again, restore once more, anew. It refers to something which could not be done AGAIN if it had not been done once before. How could Jesus tell us to do something again, unless it is something that had been done before...I know this subject alone will lose most everyone.

Jn.3:3-7
"3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

1 Pt.1:3
"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

1 Pt.1:23
" 23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

Gal.4:19
"19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

Jas.5:19-20
"19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

We can also be revived again (Ps.85:6), return to God again (Jer.3:1; Eze.33:14), turn from sin again (Eze.18:27; Jer.25:5), Be grafted into the olive tree again (Rom.11:23), be taught again (Heb.5:12), and be made over again (Jer.18:4).

Reading these verses, it is hard for me to understand how Christians have come to the conclusion that being born of the Spirit again is possible, but even though it is something being done again, at least a second time, it is impossible to do it again. Especially w/ Scripture that tells us that we can turn from our righteousness again (Eze.3:20), build sinful things again (Gal.2:18), desire to be in bondage again (Gal.4:9), be entangled in the Mosaic Law again (Gal.5:1), continue sinning and repenting again and again (Heb.6:1), turn back to folly again (Ps.85:8), and of course a passage that you are very familiar with...we can be entangled again in sin (2 Pt.2:20-22).

Being born again is the life given to our spirit by the removeal of all sin. What we are owed for sin is eternal death, so w/ this sentence off our account the moment all past sins are taken away, our spirit has life. Being born again doesn't mean that there is a coming into existance of the body, soul, or the spirit, as in the natural birth, but a consecration of them to serve God and holiness instead of Satan and sin (Rom.6:16-23; 8:1-13; Col.3:5-10; Gal.5:16-26; Jn.8:31-36). Being born again is not a begetting by the Holy Spirit in the sense that Jesus Christ became the only begotten Son of God (Jn.1:14, 18; 3:16), but a renewal in righteousness and true holiness of one who is already in existance (Eph.4:23-24; Col.3:10; Ps.51:10). This is why the righteous sin not (Eze.3:21; 1 Jn.3:9), b/c the righteous who sin have a new master and are not righteous when or if they sin (Jn.8:34; Rom.6:16; 1 Jn.3:1-10). The righteous will die to the flesh daily so that their spirits will live eternally (Gal.6:7-8). If you do sin, then repent to the Advocate (1 Jn.2:1-6); and what is an advocate for, but to restore the sinning backslider.


I'm sorry for offending those of you that take offense when I post books w/ chapters, w/ verses that might actually prove what I'm saying doesn't come from any authority I have assumed.

 

[John]

“Whoever believes in the son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.†John 3:36

If you don’t find your way to God through Jesus, you will never know God personally and your life will have no lasting value. When you die you will be separated from God forever. The Bible calls this hell. But if you accept Jesus as your savior, you will have a personal relationship with God and live with him forever. The Bible calls this heaven.

Which Way Are You Going?
Jesus said:
“Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.†John5:24

LOST = Without Christ = Hell
SAVED =With Christ = Heaven

How Do I Find My Way To God?
Three simple steps.

1. Admit you are a sinner and turn away from sin (see John 8:11)

2. Believe (have faith) that when Jesus died on the cross he took the punishment for all your sin and he rose to life again to conquer death (see John 1:29)

3. Receive (ask) Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. “To all who received him, o those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.†John 1:12

A simple prayer.

"Lord Jesus, thank you for showing me how much I need you. Thank you for dying on the cross for me. Please forgive all my failures and the sins of my past. Make me clean and help me start fresh with you. I now receive you into my life as my Lord and Savior. Help me to love and serve you with all my heart. Amen"

Your Destination: A New Beginning.

Becoming a Christian is only the beginning of an exciting journey. Jesus called it being "born again" (see John 3:3). It means that you now have a personal relationship with God as your heavenly father. You are not alone. God sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to be your Counselor, to guide you into all truth (see John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:12-15) He will help you live each day for God and to accept the changes He wants to make in your life. You can depend on His power to enable you to grow as a Christian. Being a Christian involves a whole new life.

You DO NOT have to be a catholic to enter heaven.

Gotta hate censorship

 

[MarkT]

Yes, that is my point... Not all who believe today will be enter the Kingdom.

Well, that's not exactly what I said.

As many as are ordained to life believe. But the opposite isn't true. All who believe Jesus is the Christ are not saved. Jesus said many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and they will lead many astray. Mt. 24:5

So only false teachers can fall away into the "vomit of their former lives"???

No. Dogs become false teachers. And generally they turn and bite. They trample what is holy under foot and turn to attack.

Hardly. 2 Peter 2:2 says people follow their damnable teachings. These people will speak badly about the WAY. They are in the same boat as the false teachers. BOTH had received illumination, BOTH had escaped the pollutions of the world. And BOTH will suffer the fate of the damned, being worse off than before, IF they do not repent.

You present a distinction that is just not there. Of course, Peter attacks the false teachers, but he does not give their followers a free pass to heaven. THEY ALSO are condemned. 2 Peter 2:4-7 makes that clear. Were ONLY the "false preachers" in the time of Noah killed during the flood? Were ONLY the "false preachers" killed in Sodom and Gomorrah???

NO! EVERYONE, leader and follower of sin, is condemned.

This simple fact makes your whole point smoke and mirrors by setting up some sort of artificial buffer between the believer and the false teacher. A believer no longer is a believer if they fall from the Way.

It is inconsequential if they had ONCE been saved from sin. Returning to sin brings condemnation.

Peter doesn't say anything about them being saved.

It's not that they were once saved. They were dogs. They went back to the vomit they knew.

'Many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.'

You have to admit (if you can be objective) the CC has done alot of things that have caused people to revile the way of truth; including the Inquisition, the burning of heretics, and acting immorally with children.

Is Peter calling himself a false teacher? No.

He is describing them - saying they are greedy for gain, ignorant, irrational animals, bold and wilful, and ungodly. He could be describing the CC or the Anglican church. But what makes you think he is describing the OSAS people?

All Peter is saying is that they knew the way of righteousness. They had good teachers - Peter and John, etc. But being ungodly, they went back to their vomit. The implication here is that they went back to doing what they were doing before they knew of Jesus - probably creating and worshipping idols, charging money, maybe temple prostitution, homosexual acts, getting drunk, carousing, committing adultery. But what makes you think they were saved? I don't think so. They were the sons of the evil one. Indeed the wrath of God fell on them. So then how can we say they were saved from the wrath of God? You can't fool God. He knows who they are who belong to him, and who do not. And he gives them over to a base mind and to improper conduct.

 

[MarkT]

Those who hate the truth aren't saved. They are perishing.

 

[Cornelius]

Adam and Eve had eternal life also, but was it not also conditional on obedience, continuing faithfulness, and abiding in the truth? The tree of life that was in the garden was their source of life, they had to partake of it to live.

Abraham too had eternal life and we know that Moses and Elijah appeared on the mountain with Jesus. They too had eternal life before the crucifixion.

So since they had eternal life before...........what did Jesus came to do, that did not happen to Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses and Elijah ?

1) Take away all sins committed instead of them just being covered (Rom.3:25; 1 Jn.3:5)
2) Atone for all sins past, present, and future so that there would be no more need for blood sacrifice (Heb.10:10-18; Col.2:14-17; 1 Pt.2:24).
3) Unite the righteous captives in the center of the earth to God since their sins were now all taken away (Eph.4:7-11; Acts 2:27; Ps.16:10; 68:18; Mat.12:40; Heb.2:14-15; 12:23).

I agree.

Point 1) is the one that people do not really realize. The "taking away" part is preached as "forgiven"