Who made God?

[OzSpen]

they will hear it I would tell them that my findings are that the bible is from God, and therefore the source of creation is the Christian and Jewish God that is testified in the bible.

What criteria do you use to conclude the Bible is from God?

 

[OzSpen]

Does honesty work with them?

You would be surprised what the Holy Spirit can do with the truth.

JLB

I share honestly and with the truth and leave the work to the Holy Spirit. However, I don't just quote the Bible to them. I engage with conversation on issues they want to discuss. I'm an exegetical apologist with a bent for reasoning for Jesus.

 

[humble soul]

I share honestly and with the truth and leave the work to the Holy Spirit. However, I don't just quote the Bible to them. I engage with conversation on issues they want to discuss. I'm an exegetical apologist with a bent for reasoning for Jesus.

Hey ozpen. Do you think the average punter Christian should engage with atheists in semi serious debate? Should we be trying to gain some basic skills in Apologetics? Or leave it to people like you?

 

[JLB]

I share honestly and with the truth and leave the work to the Holy Spirit. However, I don't just quote the Bible to them.

Oz

You know I didn’t say anything about quoting the Bible to them.

I said God is uncreated.

JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Thats right. We need to remember that not all atheists are the same. Some are still open and in transition. Just like they shouldn't tar all Christians with the same brush.

humble soul,

Lee Strobel was one such person who moved from atheism to Christ. He wrote, The Case for Christ.

I'm currently reading through Strobel's The Case for Faith.

Read 'C S Lewis as Atheist Turned Apostle'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Hey ozpen. Do you think the average punter Christian should engage with atheists in semi serious debate? Should we be trying to gain some basic skills in Apologetics? Or leave it to people like you?

humble soul,

No, I do not believe the average member of the Christian laity could engaged with atheists. I couldn't have way back in 1984 and I had biblical training to BA and MA levels, but nothing on apologetics.

It's time for the local church to wake up and equip the saints for their work of ministry (Eph 4:11-12). Many churches let their young people loose on uni campuses unprepared for assaults on their beliefs.

I'm unwell. I'll continue later.

Oz

 

[Hospes]

That doesn't seem to be a response from someone who is open to honest discussion. Dogmatism may work with some, but not with secular Aussies.

I would think that even secular Aussies are not impervious to the work of God’s Spirit of truth. (:

 

[OzSpen]

I would think that even secular Aussies are not impervious to the work of God’s Spirit of truth. (:

Why don't you follow the anti-God comments in On Line Opinion, a secular e-journal
I have hada few articles published last year.

 

[OzSpen]

I would think that even secular Aussies are not impervious to the work of God’s Spirit of truth. (:

Hospes,

Why don't you follow up on some of the Comments to my articles published in 2018-2019?

Fitz Files Fail Law & Liberties - 25/11/2019 - 38 comments

Have politics changed ScoMo's Christianity? Religion & Spirituality - 6/11/2019 - 33 comments

Can a Labor leopard change its spots? Domestic Politics - 19/09/2019 - 44 comments

Scott Morrison needs to 'obey God's message' Law & Liberties - 4/09/2019 - 65 comments

Peter FitzSimons: it may come back to bite you Law & Liberties - 6/08/2019 - 17 comments

Sleeper cells and Australian election victory Domestic Politics - 21/05/2019 - 10 comments

Any old resurrection will not do Religion & Spirituality - 23/04/2019 - 31 comments

Millennials choose fake theology Religion & Spirituality - 8/04/2019 - 28 comments

Intolerant intolerance Law & Liberties - 21/02/2019 - 70 comments

Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored Religion & Spirituality - 24/12/2018 - 39 comments

Holey Bible arguments against Margaret Court Law & Liberties - 7/11/2018 - 25 comments

Oz

 

[humble soul]

Hospes,

Why don't you follow up on some of the Comments to my articles published in 2018-2019?

Fitz Files Fail Law & Liberties - 25/11/2019 - 38 comments

Have politics changed ScoMo's Christianity? Religion & Spirituality - 6/11/2019 - 33 comments

Can a Labor leopard change its spots? Domestic Politics - 19/09/2019 - 44 comments

Scott Morrison needs to 'obey God's message' Law & Liberties - 4/09/2019 - 65 comments

Peter FitzSimons: it may come back to bite you Law & Liberties - 6/08/2019 - 17 comments

Sleeper cells and Australian election victory Domestic Politics - 21/05/2019 - 10 comments

Any old resurrection will not do Religion & Spirituality - 23/04/2019 - 31 comments

Millennials choose fake theology Religion & Spirituality - 8/04/2019 - 28 comments

Intolerant intolerance Law & Liberties - 21/02/2019 - 70 comments

Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored Religion & Spirituality - 24/12/2018 - 39 comments

Holey Bible arguments against Margaret Court Law & Liberties - 7/11/2018 - 25 comments

Oz

I read your article on Peter Fitz. Very good. totally agree. Fitzimmons is arrogance personified.

 

[Christ the King]

Hey ozpen. Do you think the average punter Christian should engage with atheists in semi serious debate? Should we be trying to gain some basic skills in Apologetics? Or leave it to people like you?

Have u checked the answer OzSpen gave to your questions.

Im not telling you not to engage atheists in debates, by all means feel free.
Jump into the main online atheist forum where I was currently debating abortion with some of them. Just recently a Muslim has entered the abortion thread and has really ruffled some feathers.

It's actually good to observe their behaviours, thinking processes, how anti-Christ some of them are, their moral foundations, how sinister some of them are. It reflects what we see in society with a movement against Christianity and everything else that built our society.

What boggles my mind the most is how they view morality. Indeed the question of morality was what first made me start to reject atheism. And my thought process regarding morality took me on a path, a journey which led me to our Lord. He is the righteous one, not us.

I think you said that you can't paint them with the same brush and that is true. I was an atheist but it was myself that got out of that mindset without anyone else having to convince me. But on these atheist forums I woulnd't expect to find many reasonable atheists.

One of them recently explained to me what he meant by "moral realism".
Within his explanation was...

"as a moral realist, there is no "opposing view", only a collection of wrong and ignorant views"

That statement alone tell me a lot. It tells me that there is no reasoning with this person and any attempt would be a waste of time

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

What criteria do you use to conclude the Bible is from God?

From reading the bible itself. When I read it on my search for God, I had the impression that God was reading it with me. Either that or the Holy Spirit, or maybe an angel. It was as if He wanted me to understand the verses I was reading. This goes in the same line of thought of the importance of each person searching for God on their own and that if they search for Him, He'll be able to be found.

A second thing about the bible is how it always seems to convey the same message or simular messages. I know people say there are contradictions, but I don't see them. In the span the bible was written, the number of authors (40 authors written in 3 different languages) and the same message from God to repent, turn from your sins, as well as God recusing His people and His judgement on wickedness. These don't seem to change, not throughout the history of older books to newer books.

I don't know if these have any new information that you haven't heard before OzSpen, but I heard these sermons on a local radio station. These sermons were about addressing the common challenges for why people don't believe in Christianity and giving them a good answer for those challenges.

Media | White Fields Community Church | A Christian Church in Longmont, Colorado

White Fields Community Church | A Christian Church in Longmont, Colorado

whitefieldschurch.com

The third one talks about the bible and it's reliability. It's about 45 minutes long though.

 

[OzSpen]

From reading the bible itself. When I read it on my search for God, I had the impression that God was reading it with me. Either that or the Holy Spirit, or maybe an angel. It was as if He wanted me to understand the verses I was reading. This goes in the same line of thought of the importance of each person searching for God on their own and that if they search for Him, He'll be able to be found.

A second thing about the bible is how it always seems to convey the same message or simular messages. I know people say there are contradictions, but I don't see them. In the span the bible was written, the number of authors (40 authors written in 3 different languages) and the same message from God to repent, turn from your sins, as well as God recusing His people and His judgement on wickedness. These don't seem to change, not throughout the history of older books to newer books.

I don't know if these have any new information that you haven't heard before OzSpen, but I heard these sermons on a local radio station. These sermons were about addressing the common challenges for why people don't believe in Christianity and giving them a good answer for those challenges.

Media | White Fields Community Church | A Christian Church in Longmont, Colorado

White Fields Community Church | A Christian Church in Longmont, Colorado

whitefieldschurch.com

The third one talks about the bible and it's reliability. It's about 45 minutes long though.

NNS,

Sounds to me like you had an open heart to receive from God and his Word. Would that have been so.

I can only speak for my home country of Australia, but there is an appalling lack of equipping believers to answer unbelievers in the churches. This influenced my writing this article: Interested in low interest rates? Try apologetics in the church!

Blessings,
Oz

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,

Why don't you follow up on some of the Comments to my articles published in 2018-2019?

Fitz Files Fail Law & Liberties - 25/11/2019 - 38 comments

Have politics changed ScoMo's Christianity? Religion & Spirituality - 6/11/2019 - 33 comments

Can a Labor leopard change its spots? Domestic Politics - 19/09/2019 - 44 comments

Scott Morrison needs to 'obey God's message' Law & Liberties - 4/09/2019 - 65 comments

Peter FitzSimons: it may come back to bite you Law & Liberties - 6/08/2019 - 17 comments

Sleeper cells and Australian election victory Domestic Politics - 21/05/2019 - 10 comments

Any old resurrection will not do Religion & Spirituality - 23/04/2019 - 31 comments

Millennials choose fake theology Religion & Spirituality - 8/04/2019 - 28 comments

Intolerant intolerance Law & Liberties - 21/02/2019 - 70 comments

Make-believe and celebrations: Christmas message ignored Religion & Spirituality - 24/12/2018 - 39 comments

Holey Bible arguments against Margaret Court Law & Liberties - 7/11/2018 - 25 comments

Oz

Hi Oz. I'm not sure what you are after. Help me out. What is the reason I should go read comments to your articles? (This is an honest question.)

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz. I'm not sure what you are after. Help me out. What is the reason I should go read comments to your articles? (This is an honest question.)

Hospes,

Take a look at how many comments to my articles do not address the topic I wrote about. Instead, they choose to attack the Christian faith and my beliefs through the use (often) of logical fallacies - errors in reasoning.

Oz

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,

Take a look at how many comments to my articles do not address the topic I wrote about. Instead, they choose to attack the Christian faith and my beliefs through the use (often) of logical fallacies - errors in reasoning.

Oz

I see. Is there an insight you're hoping I'll gain? Sorry if I seem obtuse: just trying to understand what you're after.

Also, do you find that clearing up fallacious thinking effective at bringing someone to faith?

 

[OzSpen]

I see. Is there an insight you're hoping I'll gain? Sorry if I seem obtuse: just trying to understand what you're after.

Also, do you find that clearing up fallacious thinking effective at bringing someone to faith?

Hospes,

I'm not trying to point to an insight for you. However, when I see respondents avoiding the content of my article with the use of logical fallacies, I sometimes draw that to their attention.

If a person continues to use the fallacious reasoning of logical fallacies, there is no way I can continue engagement with them because erroneous reasoning is illogical. It closes down reasonable conversation.

When atheists or others do this, I point to the need to discuss the issues raised by that world view. For example, if a person states that the Bible is hogwash and is a fairy tale to compare with Mary Poppins, I use this approach:

1. Show that using an Ad Hominem logical fallacy gets us nowhere in the conversation because it doesn't deal with the content of the conversation, lecture, articles or book. Then,
2. Demonstrate the Bible is not a 'once upon a time' fairytale but is an historically based faith whose sacred books are reliable sources of information for God, Jesus, etc.
3. I demonstrate this through strategies I used in the articles:

(a) Evidence for the afterlife;​

(b) Can you trust the Bible? Part 1​

(c) Can you trust the Bible? Part 2 ​

(d) Can you trust the Bible? Part 3 ​

(e) Can you trust the Bible? Part 4​

My goal is to guide the discussion towards honesty of the Christian position.

I'm of the view that apologetics has low interest in the local evangelical church as those churches have not seen the need to equip young people especially for the anti-Christian challenges in life. I speak from personal experience. My local evangelical church where I was baptised was faithful in expounding Scripture but apologetics got a flick pass.

Providing evidence for God's existence, defending the Trinity, and the problem of evil and suffering were not raised as I was growing up in that church from a well-known evangelical denomination.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

To my brothers and sisters in Christ,

I live in a secular, godless society where people deny the existence of God.

Too often they can't get to the basics and ask: You talk so much about God and his evidence in creation, but who made God?

If you were talking to a secular person in your country, how would you answer the question: Who made God?

Blessings,
Oz

Hi Oz,
I also live in a secular country...Europe is pretty much secular these days. Churches are empty and traditions are disappearing.

Who made God is an interesting question.

I like to tell the person that we have two choices and only two:
And each choice has a problem and we can only decide with which problem we wish to spend the rest of our life.


1. God made everything. We can't understand how God is present or how He made everything or everything about Him or how He got to BE.

2. We have to accept that everything we see around us came about from nothing at all.


Quite a choice!
And yet, this is the choice we are faced with.

I tell them that if we're reading a book...
someone had to put that book together.
If we're wearing a watch...
someone had to make that watch.
The watchmaker theory.

This, to me, seems more logical.
Somehow, everything had to get here...
the question is which way do we trust more?

Nowadays, since we know so much more, I like to say how our DNA is organized and could not have come about by mistake or evolution -- it truly seems impossible when we understand how a cell functions.

So, I throw the old "something from nothing" impossibility out there and see how they handle it.

The other reasons are not accepted...like for instance..
the question is faulty because God was not created and the question assumes He was. They could care less about this reasoning.

But, even I think it is a real mystery that will be understood only after we pass away at which time we will know all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hospes,

I'm not trying to point to an insight for you. However, when I see respondents avoiding the content of my article with the use of logical fallacies, I sometimes draw that to their attention.

If a person continues to use the fallacious reasoning of logical fallacies, there is no way I can continue engagement with them because erroneous reasoning is illogical. It closes down reasonable conversation.

When atheists or others do this, I point to the need to discuss the issues raised by that world view. For example, if a person states that the Bible is hogwash and is a fairy tale to compare with Mary Poppins, I use this approach:

1. Show that using an Ad Hominem logical fallacy gets us nowhere in the conversation because it doesn't deal with the content of the conversation, lecture, articles or book. Then,
2. Demonstrate the Bible is not a 'once upon a time' fairytale but is an historically based faith whose sacred books are reliable sources of information for God, Jesus, etc.
3. I demonstrate this through strategies I used in the articles:

(a) Evidence for the afterlife;​

(b) Can you trust the Bible? Part 1​

(c) Can you trust the Bible? Part 2 ​

(d) Can you trust the Bible? Part 3 ​

(e) Can you trust the Bible? Part 4​

My goal is to guide the discussion towards honesty of the Christian position.

I'm of the view that apologetics has low interest in the local evangelical church as those churches have not seen the need to equip young people especially for the anti-Christian challenges in life. I speak from personal experience. My local evangelical church where I was baptised was faithful in expounding Scripture but apologetics got a flick pass.

Providing evidence for God's existence, defending the Trinity, and the problem of evil and suffering were not raised as I was growing up in that church from a well-known evangelical denomination.

Oz

Oz,
Re the above, I'd like to say that I took a year's study of Discipleship and it helped me greatly in my understanding of Christianity.

I believe this is also lacking in churches, as this study is not offered in many.

(I don't know if this is still true).

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,
I also live in a secular country...Europe is pretty much secular these days. Churches are empty and traditions are disappearing.

Who made God is an interesting question.

I like to tell the person that we have two choices and only two:
And each choice has a problem and we can only decide with which problem we wish to spend the rest of our life.


1. God made everything. We can't understand how God is present or how He made everything or everything about Him or how He got to BE.

2. We have to accept that everything we see around us came about from nothing at all.


Quite a choice!
And yet, this is the choice we are faced with.

I tell them that if we're reading a book...
someone had to put that book together.
If we're wearing a watch...
someone had to make that watch.
The watchmaker theory.

This, to me, seems more logical.
Somehow, everything had to get here...
the question is which way do we trust more?

Nowadays, since we know so much more, I like to say how our DNA is organized and could not have come about by mistake or evolution -- it truly seems impossible when we understand how a cell functions.

So, I throw the old "something from nothing" impossibility out there and see how they handle it.

The other reasons are not accepted...like for instance..
the question is faulty because God was not created and the question assumes He was. They could care less about this reasoning.

But, even I think it is a real mystery that will be understood only after we pass away at which time we will know all.

wondering,

That is an outstanding response with incredible insight.

Blessings to my Italian friend from this Aussie, Aussie, Aussie Oi, Oi, Oi friend,

Oz