Who made God?

[OzSpen]

I don't have to provide anything as I am saved by faith. If and when I testify, and I do on occasion, I give people Jesus's words as I believe in judgments made it will be His words that prevail.

Scripture states faith comes from hearing and hearing comes by the word of God.

Randy,

So, is that a leap of faith based on no evidence?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Where does Scripture say that we are to provide the evidence?

WIP,

Are you not convinced of the need for Christians to provide evidence to non-Christians when witnessing to them?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
Of course this is true and has been repeated on this thread.
However, we all know it will not satisfy the skeptic atheist.
He would just call it a cop out. (or however they say this in Australia).

wondering,

I have not found that to be true from my dealing with skeptics. Henry Morris and his grandson wrote an interesting book that addresses this topic, Many Infallible Proofs (1974:11).

In it they state:

Whenever they first approached pagans, who neither believed nor even knew the Old Testament Scriptures, they never began by quoting Scripture. Rather, they first approached them in reference to the physical creation and their intuitive knowledge of a primeval Creator (note especially Acts 14:11-17 and Acts 17:18-31).

Oz

 

[WIP]

WIP,

Are you not convinced of the need for Christians to provide evidence to non-Christians when witnessing to them?

Oz

I'm not arguing with you. I just want to know where it says in Scripture that we are to provide evidence. The evidence is all around us and it can be provided easy enough. Doesn't mean it will change minds because if it did, the minds would already be changed.

I know Peter tells us to be ready to give a defense or explanation or answer for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15) but that is different than evidence. Besides, evidence is not proof.

 

[JLB]

Hi Oz,
I also live in a secular country...Europe is pretty much secular these days. Churches are empty and traditions are disappearing.

Who made God is an interesting question.

I like to tell the person that we have two choices and only two:
And each choice has a problem and we can only decide with which problem we wish to spend the rest of our life.


1. God made everything. We can't understand how God is present or how He made everything or everything about Him or how He got to BE.

2. We have to accept that everything we see around us came about from nothing at all.


Quite a choice!
And yet, this is the choice we are faced with.

I tell them that if we're reading a book...
someone had to put that book together.
If we're wearing a watch...
someone had to make that watch.
The watchmaker theory.

This, to me, seems more logical.
Somehow, everything had to get here...
the question is which way do we trust more?

Nowadays, since we know so much more, I like to say how our DNA is organized and could not have come about by mistake or evolution -- it truly seems impossible when we understand how a cell functions.

So, I throw the old "something from nothing" impossibility out there and see how they handle it.

The other reasons are not accepted...like for instance..
the question is faulty because God was not created and the question assumes He was. They could care less about this reasoning.

But, even I think it is a real mystery that will be understood only after we pass away at which time we will know all.

I'm not arguing with you. I just want to know where it says in Scripture that we are to provide evidence. The evidence is all around us and it can be provided easy enough. Doesn't mean it will change minds because if it did, the minds would already be changed.

I know Peter tells us to be ready to give a defense or explanation or answer for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15) but that is different than evidence. Besides, evidence is not proof.

The Scriptures don’t.

Yes the hope that is within us, but we are not called to prove God exists.

These people who try to prove the non existence of God are used by the enemy to distract us from proclaiming the Gospel.


If their is no hunger or thirsting for righteousness then there will be no filling that need.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6


The Holy Spirit is the only reason a person is convicted of sin, and receives grace to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

People aren’t convicted through human logic.

People don’t repent because of human logic.

The Spirit agrees with the word.


Are there exceptions to this?

I’m sure there is, but it takes the wisdom of God flowing through us by the Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, to penetrate as light into a person’s spirit, into their heart, to bring conviction.


Without the Spirit, all of our good logical answers to atheists are futile.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Randy,

So, is that a leap of faith based on no evidence?

Oz

I was steered to Jesus at a very young age by my Christian Mother. I have loved and believed in the Lord as far back as my memory goes. Jesus responded to my prayers as He Lives! Therefore I have no common frame of reference for a adult looking for evidence for the existence of God or the belief in Jesus as depicted in the NT. But I do know that those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. As Jesus stated the words of the prophets, "they shall all be taught by God" and no one comes to Him unless the Father enables them.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” c

20Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I have not found that to be true from my dealing with skeptics. Henry Morris and his grandson wrote an interesting book that addresses this topic, Many Infallible Proofs (1974:11).

In it they state:



Oz

I gave you a like because I agree with what was stated in Many Infallible Proofs.

However, this book is for SKEPTICS.

In your O.P. you're talking about ATHEISTS.

Let's realize that today atheism is a RELIGION...
Those at the top of this religion are out to eliminate Christianity.

THEY would never accept these infallible proofs....

Richard Dawkins actually said the above in plain language...
wish I could find it on YouTube. If you really want to hear it, I WILL spend some time and try to find it.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Scriptures don’t.

Yes the hope that is within us, but we are not called to prove God exists.

These people who try to prove the non existence of God are used by the enemy to distract us from proclaiming the Gospel.


If their is no hunger or thirsting for righteousness then there will be no filling that need.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6


The Holy Spirit is the only reason a person is convicted of sin, and receives grace to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.

People aren’t convicted through human logic.

People don’t repent because of human logic.

The Spirit agrees with the word.


Are there exceptions to this?

I’m sure there is, but it takes the wisdom of God flowing through us by the Spirit, the Spirit of Wisdom, to penetrate as light into a person’s spirit, into their heart, to bring conviction.


Without the Spirit, all of our good logical answers to atheists are futile.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not arguing with you. I just want to know where it says in Scripture that we are to provide evidence. The evidence is all around us and it can be provided easy enough. Doesn't mean it will change minds because if it did, the minds would already be changed.

I know Peter tells us to be ready to give a defense or explanation or answer for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15) but that is different than evidence. Besides, evidence is not proof.

Henry Morris and Henry Morris III wrote, Why Study Christian Evidences?

In the first chapter of this book it states:

There is a clear need for criteria by which to establish the unique validity of biblical Christianity. A credulous faith in some artificial “Christ” of one’s own imagination, rather than in the real Christ of biblical history, is not that faith by which men are saved.

Further justification for understanding and using Christian evidences is found in the following partial list of reasons:

1. The Bible commands it. Note especially 1 Peter 3:15:“Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you.”In this verse, the Greek word for "answer” is apologia, from which is derived our English word “apologetics.” This same word is translated “defense” in Philippians 1:7 and 1:17, in which Paul indicates his deep concern for the “defense and confirmation of the gospel.” See also Jude 3 (“earnestly contend for thefaith”), Colossians 4:6 (“know how ye ought to answer every man”), Titus 1:9 (“convince the gainsayers”), and others.

2.The early Christians consistently used Christian evidences in their witnessing. This was especially true of the evidential value of the resurrection of Christ (Acts 4:33; 1 Cor. 15:1-8, etc.), of the evidence of God in nature (Acts 14:15-17; Rom. 1:20), and of the objective testimony of their own transformed lives (Acts 26:9-22; 1 Tim. 1:12-16; etc.). Whenever they first approached pagans, who neither believed nor even knew the Old Testament Scriptures, they never began by quoting Scripture. Rather, they first approached them in reference to the physical creation and their intuitive knowledge of a primeval Creator (note especially Acts 14:11-17 and Acts 17:18-31).

3. The almost universal climate of skepticism and unbelief today, together with an appalling [knowledge of] the Bible and Christian doctrine, makes it that a sound exposition of Christian evidences accompany a presentation of the gospel if lasting results are to be obtained. It is often possible to secure a quick emotional “decision for Christ”without this, but such a person is too often like “he that received the seed into stony places . . . that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended” (Matt. 13:20-21).​

Indeed, very often it is impossible today even to obtain a hearing for the gospel unless the ground has been prepared by clearing away some of the stones of misinformation about the supposed errors in the Bible and fallacies of Christian doctrine.

4. It is experimentally true that many who today are strong and fruitful Christians were either won to Christ initially in part by the judicious use of Christian evidences or else were materially strengthened in their faith and witness by this means.​

So, is there a biblical need to provide evidence to non-believers, according to the Bible?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I gave you a like because I agree with what was stated in Many Infallible Proofs.

However, this book is for SKEPTICS.

In your O.P. you're talking about ATHEISTS.

Let's realize that today atheism is a RELIGION...
Those at the top of this religion are out to eliminate Christianity.

THEY would never accept these infallible proofs....

Richard Dawkins actually said the above in plain language...
wish I could find it on YouTube. If you really want to hear it, I WILL spend some time and try to find it.

wondering,

Richard Dawkins, atheist/agnostic, stated he

has now come out and repudiated his previous belief that Christianity should be banished from society even more firmly. In fact, he told The Times, ending religion—once his fervent goal—would be a terrible idea, because it would “give people a license to do really bad things.” Despite the fact that Dawkins has long argued that the very idea of the God of the Bible being necessary as a basis for morality is both ridiculous and offensive, he appears to be backtracking. “People may feel free to do bad things because they feel God is no longer watching them,” he said, citing the example of security cameras as a deterrent to shoplifting. One wonders if he has heard Douglas Murray remind people that the Soviets murdered their millions in the firm belief that there was no Judge waiting for them when the killing was over (Life Site: Atheists sound the alarm: Decline of Christianity is seriously hurting society, 4 November 2019).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The Scriptures don’t.

Yes the hope that is within us, but we are not called to prove God exists.

JLB,

The Scriptures disagree. See my post @ #89.

Romans 1:18-20 (NIV) calls on Christians to provide this evidence:

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

Can anything be cleared? God's invisible qualities of eternal power and his divinity are 'clearly seen' FROM 'what has been made' -- from creation.

Are these verses not in your Bible?

Oz

 

[JLB]

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Can anything be cleared? God's invisible qualities of eternal power and his divinity are 'clearly seen' FROM 'what has been made' -- from creation.

Are these verses not in your Bible?

Yes, these verses are in my bible.

Thank you for posting scripture, it is refreshing to see, rather than quotes and links to other scholars and their opinions.


Here is what else is in my Bible, the verse you didn’t quote from this passage, by which my point is made.


My Point from my post.


These people who try to prove the non existence of God are used by the enemy to distract us from proclaiming the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is the only reason a person is convicted of sin, and receives grace to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.



The verse from Romans 1 you didn’t post.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Romans 1:16-20


What I said in my first post would lead you to this scripture in your conversation with them.


Here is what I mentioned.


Who made the earth and the sun, the ocean and the stars?

They would then reply with one of two answers:

I don’t know.
or
God


Either one of these answers would lead you to Romans 1 and the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation which the Holy Spirit would work with you.

I’m on your side bro.

Just trying to offer my two cents.





JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, these verses are in my bible.

Thank you for posting scripture, it is refreshing to see, rather than quotes and links to other scholars and their opinions.


Here is what else is in my Bible, the verse you didn’t quote from this passage, by which my point is made.


My Point from my post.


These people who try to prove the non existence of God are used by the enemy to distract us from proclaiming the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is the only reason a person is convicted of sin, and receives grace to believe and therefore obey the Gospel.



The verse from Romans 1 you didn’t post.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Romans 1:16-20


What I said in my first post would lead you to this scripture in your conversation with them.


Here is what I mentioned.


Who made the earth and the sun, the ocean and the stars?

They would then reply with one of two answers:

I don’t know.
or
God

Either one of these answers would lead you to Romans 1 and the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation which the Holy Spirit would work with you.

I’m on your side bro.

Just trying to offer my two cents.

JLB

JLB,

You still refuse to acknowledge that the apostle Paul, in Rom 1:18-20 (NIV), instructed the Christians to provide evidence to demonstrate the power and divinity of God.

You say, 'I’m on your side bro.' With respect, you are not on my side by denying the need for evidence when sharing the faith. You are on the side of those who don't want to obey Rom 1:18-20 (NIV).

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Richard Dawkins, atheist/agnostic, stated he

Oz

Thanks Oz.
I'm happy to hear this,,,,
I was horrified when I heard him say that Christianity has to be banished from the earth.

 

[JLB]

You still refuse to acknowledge that the apostle Paul, in Rom 1:18-20 (NIV), instructed the Christians to provide evidence to demonstrate the power and divinity of God.

Not true sir.

My point is the evidence that Paul describes is contextually linked to the Gospel, and from the evidence they are without excuse.


It’s not that I disagree about showing the evidence of God’s existence, what I disagree with is using human logic to try to convince an atheist that God exists.


Please try to see that my question that I propose to them contains this evidence, that you say I refuse to acknowledge.


Who made the earth and the sun, the ocean and the stars?


By me asking this question, I have built into it, the evidence that leads to what Paul says in Romans 1, in which he says...
They are without excuse.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Romans 1:16-20


Again, my question... Who made the earth and the sun, the ocean and the stars? Is directly related to sharing the gospel and bringing the hardened atheist to the conclusion that they are without excuse, simply and quickly.


Again, my motive is to get you to use the evidence to share the Gospel, in which the Holy Spirit will work together with you, because you are sharing the word.


The Holy Spirit is the only One to penetrate a hard heart.




JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Thanks Oz.
I'm happy to hear this,,,,
I was horrified when I heard him say that Christianity has to be banished from the earth.

I love the phrase that goes they came for ....., they came for ....., they came for me.

Any society that picks on those who believe in love and service to others has gone evil and insane, and does horrendous things behind the scenes.

So going for Jews, shows a deeper insanity, which the Nazis followed.
The superman ideal was a Nietche invention, which is right in Dawkins back yard.

We live in a world of hedonism and lack of focus, which is no wonder so many want temporary sex filled escapistic junk. Look at our movies, Marvel comics, fantazy struggles for dominance at any cost.

 

[Religiot]

What criteria do you use to conclude the Bible is from God?

Obedience (John 7:17). (And yes, I'm aware of the circular nature of the underlying logic in my response, but all true logic, if concluded, is circular.)

 

[Who Me]

Hospes,

I agree that God is self-existent. That's a sound biblical answer, 'God said to Moses, "I am that I am." And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, 'I am has sent me to you"' (Ex 3:14 NET).

However, I'm discussing the origin of God with secular Aussies who don't give a hoot about the Scripture but still ask: 'Who made God'.

That's why I use 2 options for explanation:

1. Mistaken categories to ask who made God, and
2. Only the created needs a creator. God is not a created Being.

Oz

One answe is to remind them that they asked about aGod and that Christians rely on the bible to find our about God.

 

[The Light]

In the vein of testing the spirits to see if they are from God, an exercise that may prove beneficial to us as well as for the purposes of winning nonbelievers would start with each of us examining our own faith and bringing it under the microscope.
I'd go as far as to look for ways to poke holes in some of the positions we personally hold. This will help us grow in knowledge and truth as we strengthen our faith in what is right and get rid of the elements that have no basis in truth. Knowing how to do this will prove us with a roadmap we can display to doubters that will be able to stand up to any level of scrutiny as truth and accuracy need not fear any testing.

 

[OzSpen]

Obedience (John 7:17). (And yes, I'm aware of the circular nature of the underlying logic in my response, but all true logic, if concluded, is circular.)

Is the logic of your sentence circular?