WHY DID GOD GIVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS?

[Davies]

Hi JLB,

How does your question relate to the subject at hand? If you don't like what I say, then, ignore it, pray for me, but don't ask rhetorical questions that can be perceived as a provocation. I don't know what else to think of your question.

- Davies

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

How does your question relate to the subject at hand? If you don't like what I say, then, ignore it, pray for me, but don't ask rhetorical questions that can be perceived as a provocation. I don't know what else to think of your question.

- Davies

Sorry Bro,

I didn't mean it that way. After reading your PM post, I just wanted to know a little more about you.

Your right, it doesn't relate to the topic of the post.


JLB

 

[Davies]

Sorry Bro,

I didn't mean it that way. After reading your PM post, I just wanted to know a little more about you.

Your right, it doesn't relate to the topic of the post.


JLB

The thread has been testing me, so, please forgive me for being quick to draw conclusions. I'm from California. It's been pretty cold here in the last week, down in the 40s at night. Sorry, I'm acclimated for the desert, the low desert. lol

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Good night,

I was looking through my books, and asked the question, what would the prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon, say regarding the Christian attitude toward the law? You may not like Spurgeon, but we should all love the brethren.

The Christian Attitude to the Law

"If we are Christians, we delight in the that Law, and we are not under it as a rule of condemnation and of judgment, but we rejoice to obey it. We could not suggest an alteration to it, which would be an improvement. The Ten Commandments are very simple, but absolutely perfect for the purpose for which they were intended. To add another to them or to take one away from them would be to spoil the whole. We "delight in the Law of God after the inward man." Whoever may be Antinomians, that is, those who are "against the Law," we are not to be numbered amongst them, for we can say, with Paul, "The Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good;" and though we are carnal, and often feel ourselves "sold under sin," yet we cannot find any fault with the Law. If eternal life could have come by any Law, it would have come by that Law; and even though that Law now can do nothing for us but condemn us, yet, as we hear its terrible sentence, we feel that the Law "is holy, and just, and good." We desire, then, to have even the moral Law in our hearts, and to have it written there, that none, of our steps may slide." - Charles Spurgeon

If you say there is a fault with the Law, then you might say it couldn't bring a man salvation, but then, that wasn't the purpose of the Law. As Christians, do we hate the law of God? I hope not. It certainly gives us a reflection of the perfect nature of God. If we understand the severe nature of the Law, then we can better understand the depths of God's grace in sending us His Son to pay for our sin. Shouldn't we delight in the character and nature of God? You might say, 'Every time I compare myself to God, I look terrible.' I think that means you are getting closer to God, because you see the true nature of your sin. One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict a person of sin. By His grace, you will see the gross nature of sin's evil, and you will forsake it. There is no better place to look, to see how horrible sin is, than by looking to the cross and seeing the bloody pulp our Savior became;for what? To save sinful wretches. :amen

- Davies

 

[farouk]

Spurgeon wasn't hardline Reformed, though. For him, being under the grace of God in the Gospel was a supreme joy. It was only in more recent years that the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, where he preached in the 19th century, has been associated with a more legalistic Reformed outlook.

 

[Mitspa]

I asked a series of question and you invited my view which I offered.

I am yet to hear what you really think - but if you feel dialogue is 'to just spill out what I know for the sake of being a big shot or being seen as something' then I can understand your defensive position might have more to do with fact that your don't know.

I think remember why I wanted to forget everything I remember about our discussions!

Look I am not looking for a debate for the sake of a debate!
I know some love to debate just because they enjoy the challenge of whatever?

I am not going to waste my time, going in circles of mans logic.
Now I dont think I will ignore your post, but not look for me to answer or respond to what you do post?

Christianty is not a hobby, its not and issue as politics to be debated with deception of mans wisdom. I suggest some would be better off to walk away from the Holy Things of God, than to pretend to honor them, only to defile them.

It would be better for some, that they had never been born!
When judgment comes, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

 

[wayseer]

I think remember why I wanted to forget everything I remember about our discussions!

Look I am not looking for a debate for the sake of a debate!
I know some love to debate just because they enjoy the challenge of whatever?

I am not going to waste my time, going in circles of mans logic.
Now I dont think I will ignore your post, but not look for me to answer or respond to what you do post?

Christianty is not a hobby, its not and issue as politics to be debated with deception of mans wisdom. I suggest some would be better off to walk away from the Holy Things of God, than to pretend to honor them, only to defile them.

It would be better for some, that they had never been born!
When judgment comes, It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

But while you make some rather lengthy yet lame excuse why you have no intention in addressing the issue you have the presumption to ask others to respond to your questions.

I guess fealty is not something you think about very often.

Bye.

 

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa,

I'll spare you the trouble of posting my private messages. That was Christ like for you to offer.





No where did I claim to be condemned. Perhaps you're thinking of when I said I felt like I was in Romans 7. I did not mean that to say I felt condemned. I'm struggling in the sanctification process. The fact that I'm struggling tells me God is working with me, and I still have much to be transformed.

I do believe that you need to repent, and apologize. I think this contention has sprung up from your misinterpretation, and perhaps my poor wording. I've been trying to be clear, but I do catch myself being lazy with my words from time to time.

Having confided in you with my weaknesses and faults I see now was a mistake. But for the sake of others who are struggling, and to keep people from thinking, 'this guy thinks he's holier than thou,' I post my personal, private messages to you.

Threaten me with posting my private messages...

- Davies

No I do not play that religious game of guilt!
I know when I transgress the Royal Law of my Beloved Christ!
I do regret that what was a very good and friendly discussion between us has turned to less honorable debate!

If someone feeling very guilty, and oppressed is not condemnation? then I suggest you reconsider what the term means?

I have not condemned you, but what I have done as a minister of the mystery of Godliness, is shown you that your doctrines have condemned you already.

Now the ministry of condemnation, written and engraved on stones? guess what it does?

Who are you to stand before it and say, it does not do, what God made it to do?

Deceive yourself if you like, I know what the commandments do according to the Word of God!

They produce a evil desire to do what they command that one should not do! they condemn ALL WHO LOOK TO THEM!

 

[Mitspa]

Good night,

I was looking through my books, and asked the question, what would the prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon, say regarding the Christian attitude toward the law? You may not like Spurgeon, but we should all love the brethren.

The Christian Attitude to the Law

"If we are Christians, we delight in the that Law, and we are not under it as a rule of condemnation and of judgment, but we rejoice to obey it. We could not suggest an alteration to it, which would be an improvement. The Ten Commandments are very simple, but absolutely perfect for the purpose for which they were intended. To add another to them or to take one away from them would be to spoil the whole. We "delight in the Law of God after the inward man." Whoever may be Antinomians, that is, those who are "against the Law," we are not to be numbered amongst them, for we can say, with Paul, "The Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good;" and though we are carnal, and often feel ourselves "sold under sin," yet we cannot find any fault with the Law. If eternal life could have come by any Law, it would have come by that Law; and even though that Law now can do nothing for us but condemn us, yet, as we hear its terrible sentence, we feel that the Law "is holy, and just, and good." We desire, then, to have even the moral Law in our hearts, and to have it written there, that none, of our steps may slide." - Charles Spurgeon

If you say there is a fault with the Law, then you might say it couldn't bring a man salvation, but then, that wasn't the purpose of the Law. As Christians, do we hate the law of God? I hope not. It certainly gives us a reflection of the perfect nature of God. If we understand the severe nature of the Law, then we can better understand the depths of God's grace in sending us His Son to pay for our sin. Shouldn't we delight in the character and nature of God? You might say, 'Every time I compare myself to God, I look terrible.' I think that means you are getting closer to God, because you see the true nature of your sin. One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict a person of sin. By His grace, you will see the gross nature of sin's evil, and you will forsake it. There is no better place to look, to see how horrible sin is, than by looking to the cross and seeing the bloody pulp our Savior became;for what? To save sinful wretches. :amen

- Davies

yes a man can be under the law and under the Grace of Christ! a man cannot serve two masters!

If Christ (who is God) has justified us by His Own Blood, then how can the law of moses any longer make a charge of sin against us?

This is Pauls point throughout scripture! we have been freely justified by His Grace, nothing can overcome that!

We now are under a New Covenant! with NEW Laws, Faith and love are the only law for the believer!

I did not know love until Christ did love me!
I did not know truth until His Grace did teach me!
I never knew peace by my own strength, but By His Grace I cannot be moved!

Not by power, not by might, but by My Spirit, saith The Lord!

 

[JLB]

Good night,

I was looking through my books, and asked the question, what would the prince of preachers, Charles Spurgeon, say regarding the Christian attitude toward the law? You may not like Spurgeon, but we should all love the brethren.

The Christian Attitude to the Law

"If we are Christians, we delight in the that Law, and we are not under it as a rule of condemnation and of judgment, but we rejoice to obey it. We could not suggest an alteration to it, which would be an improvement. The Ten Commandments are very simple, but absolutely perfect for the purpose for which they were intended. To add another to them or to take one away from them would be to spoil the whole. We "delight in the Law of God after the inward man." Whoever may be Antinomians, that is, those who are "against the Law," we are not to be numbered amongst them, for we can say, with Paul, "The Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good;" and though we are carnal, and often feel ourselves "sold under sin," yet we cannot find any fault with the Law. If eternal life could have come by any Law, it would have come by that Law; and even though that Law now can do nothing for us but condemn us, yet, as we hear its terrible sentence, we feel that the Law "is holy, and just, and good." We desire, then, to have even the moral Law in our hearts, and to have it written there, that none, of our steps may slide." - Charles Spurgeon

If you say there is a fault with the Law, then you might say it couldn't bring a man salvation, but then, that wasn't the purpose of the Law. As Christians, do we hate the law of God? I hope not. It certainly gives us a reflection of the perfect nature of God. If we understand the severe nature of the Law, then we can better understand the depths of God's grace in sending us His Son to pay for our sin. Shouldn't we delight in the character and nature of God? You might say, 'Every time I compare myself to God, I look terrible.' I think that means you are getting closer to God, because you see the true nature of your sin. One of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict a person of sin. By His grace, you will see the gross nature of sin's evil, and you will forsake it. There is no better place to look, to see how horrible sin is, than by looking to the cross and seeing the bloody pulp our Savior became;for what? To save sinful wretches. :amen

- Davies

Charles Finney would bring the weight of the Law to bear on crowds of sinners in his meetings until they were under such conviction they would be crying out in great repentance, and would then receive the sweet salvation that can only come from our Savior. Finney had great success in this practice, he led many multitude to Christ in this way.

To me this is a good example of "using the law lawfully" as Paul said -

But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 1 Timothy 1:8


All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16


JLB

 

[Mitspa]

Charles Finney would bring the weight of the Law to bear on crowds of sinners in his meetings until they were under such conviction they would be crying out in great repentance, and would then receive the sweet salvation that can only come from our Savior. Finney had great success in this practice, he led many multitude to Christ in this way.

To me this is a good example of "using the law lawfully" as Paul said -

But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 1 Timothy 1:8


All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16


JLB

I do believe the law has glory for that very purpose, to contrast and make all men run to grace!
I have often considered ministrys like Finneys?
I have also seen the power of the Holy Spirit to bring multitudes to Christ, with never a mention of the law!

Paul did not preach the law, but the gospel and the law only as a witness to the gospel!

I dont not believe that a ministry like Finnys will rise again?
I could be wrong?

But the Lord said cast your nets on the right side, its the goodness of God that leads to repentance!

At Finnys time the Church was as much under law as the jews where in the Lords time, maybe those type of preachers were types of John the baptist, preparing the way for true grace? but grace has come! the end is near and the capstone will be laid with shouts of GRACE GRACE!

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Main Reason why God gave the Commandments, that would bring Him the Most Honor, was that His Son would come and magnify His Law and make it Honourable ! Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

 

[Davies]

Spurgeon wasn't hardline Reformed, though. For him, being under the grace of God in the Gospel was a supreme joy. It was only in more recent years that the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, where he preached in the 19th century, has been associated with a more legalistic Reformed outlook.

Hi farouk,

I haven't done a close study on Spurgeon, but I can see folds of grace coming from his sermons. I know nothing of the Metropolitan Tabernacle. If what you say about the Tabernacle is true, it would appear they are struggling with sin just as people did yesterday.

- Davies

 

[farouk]

Hi farouk,

I haven't done a close study on Spurgeon, but I can see folds of grace coming from his sermons. I know nothing of the Metropolitan Tabernacle. If what you say about the Tabernacle is true, it would appear they are struggling with sin just as people did yesterday.

- Davies

Davies: rather than generalize, better if Met Tab today were checked out, really, to form independent conclusions.

(I guess I'm just telling my impressions of Spurgeon and of where I'm coming from as regards the whole Reformed thing.)

Blessings.

 

[Davies]

I know when I transgress the Royal Law of my Beloved Christ!

Hi Mitspa,

When you say you transgress the Royal Law of Jesus, how does that make you feel? Do you feel bad? How often do you violate the Royal Law of Jesus?

If someone feeling very guilty, and oppressed is not condemnation? then I suggest you reconsider what the term means?

I think the word you're looking for, instead of condemnation, is conviction; though condemnation is not a bad subject to study.

I have not condemned you, but what I have done as a minister of the mystery of Godliness, is shown you that your doctrines have condemned you already.

I'm glad you haven't condemned me, but you have falsely accused me of looking to the law to be justified. You keep saying don't look to the law, but the law is something we should delight in because it gives us a reflection of the perfect character and nature of God.

Now the ministry of condemnation, written and engraved on stones? guess what it does?

Yes, I would agree with you that the law condemns us, but not as Christians.

Who are you to stand before it and say, it does not do, what God made it to do?

I don't know what you are referring to here. If you could be specific, I can respond to the charge. Have I said the law of God does not condemn or that it condemns me as a Christian? I have not said those things and I'm not promoting those things.

They produce a evil desire to do what they command that one should not do! they condemn ALL WHO LOOK TO THEM!

The Law itself is not responsible for your sin. If that was the case, Jesus would be a sinner, because He taught it. Here is a proper view of the law:
Romans 7:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Tell me, Mitspa, what is the Royal Law that you refer to? Would you call it sin when you violate it? Are you walking by the Spirit when you violate the Royal Law? When we look at the Ten Commandments, it reflects the truth about us. For the believer, he stands already condemned by the Law; for the Christian, the law no longer condemns, but shows a Holy God who follows the law even when He forgives the unjust. The Law is the means by which we see our need for salvation, our coming to Christ, even by which our sins are paid. Mercy triumphed over judgment, and it wasn't against the Law.

I still would like an apology for threatening me to post my private messages to you. If you don't apologize, I have nothing left to think other than you are unrepentant.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

Davies: rather than generalize, better if Met Tab today were checked out, really, to form independent conclusions.

(I guess I'm just telling my impressions of Spurgeon and of where I'm coming from as regards the whole Reformed thing.)

Blessings.

Hi farouk,

The reason I generalize is because I know that all Christians alike struggle with sin. I'd be the first to step in line in confessing to struggling with sin. Since you're telling me of your impressions of Spurgeon and the Reformed thing, maybe what you're saying is you wouldn't be so quick quote Spurgeon. That's just a guess. To try and keep the subject on the Commandments, I would discuss this in a different thread or privately.

Thanks farouk,

- Davies

 

[Davies]

The Main Reason why God gave the Commandments, that would bring Him the Most Honor, was that His Son would come and magnify His Law and make it Honourable ! Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Hi savedbygrace57,

Not only did Jesus magnify the law and make it honorable by His life and death, he explicitly magnified the law in the Sermon on the Mount. If we are to look to the law before conversion, how much more should we magnify the law by walking in the Spirit after conversion? We are being transformed into the image of Jesus, and I think that means we will do the things that Jesus did.

Excellent verse!

- Davies

 

[smaller]

The Law does not one bit of difference than Gods Word in Jesus Christ did:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

God did not 'bless' sin, Grace sin, sanctify sinful acts, overlook and authorize any sin, etc etc etc.

Jesus did ALSO what the LAW did. He condemned sin, period, end of conversation.

The seemingly delusional fantasy that is played out in some segments of antinomianism and grace grace alone camps is that they are now sinless or that their sin is now blessed and graced. And some might see that both law and grace has turned into dishonest speakings in those understandings and nothing more than that.

Grace 'fanned the flames' of sin even moreso than the LAW. How you say? Just take a look at what produce it has made in the body of Christ where believers day in and day out condemn each others to eternal torture in fire over their myriads of doctrines. Is that GODLY? Yes, on the dire side of the ledgers. The produce is exactly opposite of the intentions of both LAW and of GRACE, to at least love each others. But what has GRACE really produced? To me, the epitome of lawlessness. The exact opposite of the intentions.

The Law of phony 'self' justifications and NON-truthful speakings about 'what really goes on inside our temples,' that is in our minds and hearts, that produced the proclamations of WOE unto Pharisees was dragged even LOWER by the proclamations of GRACE to the pitiful demonstrations of divisions and proclamations of eternal torture in fire or eternal death, from one believer to another.

And by all means pardon me for seeing and pointing to the obvious.

Jesus gave us ONE MEASURE to recognize our brothers:

Matthew 7:20
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It is perhaps one of the most bizarre showings of grace grace speakers to hear in quick succession how others who do not cotton to that measure of Grace encompassing and authorizing sin and evil, that such are quickly tossed aside into condemnations for simply speaking truthfully.

Is that Grace? Uh, no. It's the same old hack with a new spin.

I have no issues with Grace being against sin and evil. And I have no issues in saying that "I" am still subject at least in 'potential' to being taken into slaveship by that working. And particularly so in my own eyes IF I DON'T SPEAK TRUTHFULLY about these matters.

Is the LAW then against me? Beyond any doubt the LAW is against 'MY' indwelling sin and evil present. This much is as solid of a fact that there is in the scriptures.

Do I then stand before God gloating in all my 'freely distributed Grace' glory? Uh, no. I have a very healthy Godly fear, knowing that He can and does work adversarily with that working, even if I believe it to be 'dormant.' I'd prefer not to find this out the 'hard way.' But that is in fact part of the path of discipline and chastisements, even when we don't think we 'deserve' any.

Anyone who has suffered any form of chastisements will know what I'm speaking of. There is a 'basis' for that transpiring. And the basis is found by the fact of having indwelling sin.

For those who didn't get the news letter, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ made exactly ZERO believers sinless.

He HUNG in condemnation to every sin and evil. Our own cross is meant to bear this burden in our end as well. And there it will END for us.

Romans 6:7
because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Paul made the accounting of DEATH a daily matter for himself precisely because he HAD INDWELLING SIN to hang there, every single day, until he himself was 'released' from his so called 'mortal coil.'

The Law serves as a permanent reminder of this matter. Indwelling sin however can be a very strange bed mate in it's ADVERSE reactions to these facts.

s

 

[John 8:32]

Hi Mitspa,

When you say you transgress the Royal Law of Jesus, how does that make you feel? Do you feel bad? How often do you violate the Royal Law of Jesus?

I think the word you're looking for, instead of condemnation, is conviction; though condemnation is not a bad subject to study.

I'm glad you haven't condemned me, but you have falsely accused me of looking to the law to be justified. You keep saying don't look to the law, but the law is something we should delight in because it gives us a reflection of the perfect character and nature of God.

Yes, I would agree with you that the law condemns us, but not as Christians.

I don't know what you are referring to here. If you could be specific, I can respond to the charge. Have I said the law of God does not condemn or that it condemns me as a Christian? I have not said those things and I'm not promoting those things.

The Law itself is not responsible for your sin. If that was the case, Jesus would be a sinner, because He taught it. Here is a proper view of the law:
Romans 7:7-8

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

Tell me, Mitspa, what is the Royal Law that you refer to? Would you call it sin when you violate it? Are you walking by the Spirit when you violate the Royal Law? When we look at the Ten Commandments, it reflects the truth about us. For the believer, he stands already condemned by the Law; for the Christian, the law no longer condemns, but shows a Holy God who follows the law even when He forgives the unjust. The Law is the means by which we see our need for salvation, our coming to Christ, even by which our sins are paid. Mercy triumphed over judgment, and it wasn't against the Law.

I still would like an apology for threatening me to post my private messages to you. If you don't apologize, I have nothing left to think other than you are unrepentant.

- Davies

Some very cogent and articulate thoughts here Davies. I think that God may view it as a slap in the face that He sent His son to die for our transgressions of His righteous law and then some would demean that sacrifice by saying that law is done away and no longer applies. If the law no longer applies, then why would the sacrifice that paid for the transgessions of that holy law still need to apply?

 

[savedbygrace57]

davies

Not only did Jesus magnify the law and make it honorable by His life and
death, he explicitly magnified the law in the Sermon on the Mount

No, Sorry it was not by His Sermon, but by His Active Life and Obedience unto Death, Action speaks louder than Words. I am speaking about what He did and accomplished, and thats it !

Read what the Truth says Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Don't add man into this !