Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Except that you completely overlook one fact, when it comes to His own regenrate children…

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
[6] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Besides God knows how to ‘straighten’ us out …

Hebrews 12:5-6 NKJV
[5] And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; [6] For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

Right. Do you want a list of his more famous children who committed terribles sins and left the faith?

The Bible actually says “when you hear his voice today do not refuse.” It doesn’t say, He knows how to make you not refuse.

 

[crossnote]

True, but whether they be Pharisees or unrighteous OSAS of faith alone, they are the same, in that none of their righteousness nor good works with unclean hearts are accepted and justified by Christ.

TRUE

Only them doing His righteousness with a pure heart are righteous as He is righteous.

And only He gives us a pure heart through the new birth.

You can read them for yourself, or if you don't agree with them, then it's probably best just to do as our Lord said,a nd Let them alone to go into their own ditches.

You seem so sure, I was hoping you could give an example or two.

If you don't want to believe there are OSAS hypocrites teaching such things, then that is probably best for you.

I have seen hypocrites in the OSNAS camp as well.

 

[crossnote]

Do you want a list of his more famous children who committed terribles sins and left the faith?

Two problems.
1. Do we know they were truly regenerate in the first place?
2. Do we know whether or not if they ever came back, even years later?

The Bible actually says “when you hear his voice today do not refuse.” It doesn’t say, He knows how to make you not refuse.

Hebrews was written to those under the pressure of persecution with the purpose of convincing the Hebrews that Christ and what He had to offer was 'better promises', a 'better covenant' a 'better priesthood' etc., they were not necessarily regenerate.

(besides it also doesn't say, "He doesn't know how to make you not refuse.")

 

[rogerg]

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Hopeful]

What did Jesus say about the truth and freedom? Did he say the truth will set you free from sin?

Yes, in John 8:32-34.

No, he says “IF you keep (do) my teachings, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” Free from sin, that’s not what he said.

Yes, it is as written in John 8:32-34.
Especially in verse 34.

You have added that. You also deleted the “keep his teaching” part which covers many subjects.

I was presenting an idea, not a chapter.

He himself says that if you are presenting your gift to God and you know a brother has something against you (you wronged them), go and make it right. Obviously he didn’t have in mind knowing the truth means you never sin against others.

That which He said to OT Jews does apply to us, except for the "temple" location.
Fortunately, in the NT we can crucify the old man and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-5
A new life without hurting others.

But I will bite, what truth do you think you have that means you never sin against man again?

Did not the OT writings contain dozens of failures by the Israelites to keep true to God?
Didn't God continually punish them for their sins?
They were the pattern busted by the NT's Messiah/Savior.
The OT couldn't make men holy, so a new testament was brought in.
One with the gift of a final turn from sin, called repentance.
One with a final sacrifice for sins, called Jesus.
One with the ability to be crucified and buried with Christ so we could also be raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
One with rebirth, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
One where we need no intercessor between us and God after our conversion.
We have been given everything we need to do what the Israelites could not do.
So, we can continue with the sin, atone, sin, atone, sin, atone, sin pattern of the OT Israelites, or we can repent of sin permanently and walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
I have made my choice of whom to follow, and so can you.

 

[Hopeful]

I notice the sinner demands an answer from you pertaining to sin, and you do so, and they reject it as pride.

They then go on to say how the sinners of Jesus' day demanded also an answer from Him pertaining to sin, and He did so, and the sinners reject it and accused Him of pride as well.

Not only can you not trust sinners to tell you the truth, you also can't trust them to even know what they are doing and talking about.

Committed sinners just don't want anyone not sinning on earth in their own day.

They denied Jesus Christ coming in the flesh righteously in His day, and they now deny His body is come righteously in their own day.

Cain argued with and then slew Abel, because Cain was committed to sinning, and Abel was committed to righteousness.

So it was in Jesus' day, and remains so today.

Yes, and I used to be one of them.
But my sorrow for how I was treating others and myself provoked me to find something better.
I started with cigarettes and fast cars, and drugs and booze and sexual experimentation.
From there I moved to false theologies that accepted my sins as "the norm", but the hurt and hurting were still there.
Jesus said "He who hungers and thirsts after righteousness shall be filled", so I knew an answer was out there.
God won't leave those who "hunger" without recourse, and a man arrived who invited me to a church meeting.
I accepted his offer and during the evening read 1 Peter 3:21 with opened eyes for the first time.
I was water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins that night in a nearby creek.
A few days later I received the gift of the Holy Ghost, manifested by speaking in tongues.
And here I am today offering my Deliverer to those looking for deliverance.

If folks are happy the way things are, just ignore me.
But if they are desperately seeking something better, it has been given to me...to the glory of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Today's unrighteous christian sinners are the spiritual children of the unrighteous Jewish sinners: They rejected the righteous witness of Jesus Christ in the flesh, and so they reject the righteous witness of His flesh and of His bones.

"Christian-sinner" is an oxymoron.
Quit using that phrase.

Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. (Mark 9)
They do not receive our witness today, even as their fathers did not receive our Lord's witness in His day.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3)
Unrighteous christian sinners do not believe Jesus lived altogether righteous as a man, because they do not believe any man in the flesh can do so, because they themselves love their own sinning more than doing righteousness at all times.
They don't mind idolizing His life as righteous, they just don't want to live it, and especially not hear it preached.
This sheds new light on the Scripture in John 3:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3)
Those who don't believe in being righteous as He was, nor in any believer being righteous as He is, do not believe He was righteous Himself, They only give lip serve to Him as having been righteous altogether.
Even as the Jews in Jesus day had made their own religion, and so rejected the man Jesus as the Christ, so do the unrighteous sinning christians of today make their own religion, and reject the righteous flesh and bones of Jesus as His saints.
Them that believe not the righteousness of Jesus' body, believe not the righteousness of the Head of the body.
Their unrighteous fathers did not come to the Light of Christ, lest their sinful deeds be reproved, neither do they come to His Light in His body.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1)
Even as they hate the reproving Light, so they also hate the righteous walking in the Light: unrighteous Cain slew righteous Abel, the unrighteous jews slew righteous Jesus, and if they are given power, the unrighteous christians will slay His righteous saints today.
Why? Because, by twisting of Scripture and rejecting the witnesses of the truth, they justify themselves in their sinning as christians on earth.
But righteous living cannot be twisted away from the truth: they must either accept it and be reproved, or kill it and continue searing their conscience against the Spirit of grace.
The spirit of Cain and of antichrist will remain on earth in the children of disobedience that hate the true Light of God's righteousness, until our Lord returns again to take up His church into the air, and destroy the wicked gathered against Him and His people that do His righteousness and sin not:
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev 17)
Until that time, the beast makes war with the saints, to overcome them by seducing them to unrighteousness again,
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13)
Or to kill them outright to do away with their own reproof:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13)
Remember, it was the unrighteous jews that had Jesus killed bodily, against the will of the Roman governor.
Our warfare is not with natural sinners on earth, whom our Lord seeks to save, but against the self-justifying unrighteous hypocrites, that make war with Him and His saints.

If they really believed in Jesus, they would be quaking in their boots instead of justifying wickedness.

 

[RBDERRICK]

TRUE

And only He gives us a pure heart through the new birth.

You seem so sure, I was hoping you could give an example or two.

I have seen hypocrites in the OSNAS camp as well.

If you really want to, you can read some for yourself. These are from another site:

And the only "obedience" after obeying the gospel by believing in Him to be saved, is believing in him to do His work in us as He will finish it to His glory.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

To try to keep yourself saved and to try to get yourself into heavenis falling from grace.

We also remember our identification with the rest of the human race, sinners, to keep us humble and connected with the world Christ came to save.

With our "holier than thou" attitude, you don't think that unbelievers don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it.

Principle: Our sin does not define who we are. The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it. Jesus is the gift of Salvation that takes a dead sinner and gives them life with faith.

Once saved by grace, those who are in Him, even when they sin, it is not counted as sin. This is true because all who have sinned perish, but "God is the God of the living".

We obey God out of love and thanksgiving, not out of feeling a need must measure up to merit getting saved!

Even when we sin, guess what, we are still imputed righteousness and saved, because He does not see our sin! We are now covered in His blood!!

Soul sleep is when we are sinning so much, that our testimony for Jesus is being destroyed, so that God will kill our bodies, in order to His testimony on earth. We are still saved, of course, but God has to take us home prematurely.

The natural man is the physical body born of the sin nature, so that we are basically born dead as sinners, because of the sinful seed of Adam. When we are saved, our soul is now forever in heavenly places, while our bodies are now the old man of sin on earth. So though we ought not to sin, as no one should, we of course still sin in our bodies due to the sin nature in our flesh and the lust of the world in our old hearts. We cannot stop from sinning, though we ought, but we do stop paying the price for sinning spiritually in heaven.

Here's a real gem from this site:

"This means that you believe you are sin free. Everyone who admits that their life is not free of sin admits it. It is to some degree an act of humility that the Holy Spirit within them."

This confirms the false humility of unrighteous christian sinners, that think boasting of how sinful they are is humbling themselves before God.

Here are some classic examples from the other site:
Newsflash!!! You too are a totally depraved sinner. You sin daily. You deny this because you’re deceived. We are not deceived like you and know we are no better than anyone else on earth!!

We are sinners just as depraved as anyone else, and we are no different from them, except we are saved by grace!!

So, OSAS teaching is that Christians are still sinners bodily, but the soul in heaven is no more judged for sinning on earth.

The soul is forever preserved sinless in heaven, waiting to receive the resurrected spiritual body, while the old sinful body still sins on earth, just like any other sinner born with sin nature from Adam.

If you agree with any of the quotes, then let me know and why.

 

[RBDERRICK]

OK...

I agree with that, and they almost seem proud of it.

Would that be the scriptures referring to life in Christ, wherein is no sin?

Those committing sin are not free from sin.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Ever heard of rebirth?
New creature?
The gift of repentance?
The death and burial of the old man?

Derail.

I can't trust sinners to tell me the truth.
It would be folly.

OSAS is for sinners more than pleased to be telling sinners, how they are just as much sinners as any other sinner on earth.

They are pleased sinners celebrating grace.

They don't just please all men, but are more than pleased to sin like all men.

The true delusion of OSAS is that sinners can sin with grace, and be pleased about not being judged for it.

It's Lucifer's first wish: to disobey God and be a god unto himself.

 

[crossnote]

If you really want to, you can read some for yourself. These are from another site:

And the only "obedience" after obeying the gospel by believing in Him to be saved, is believing in him to do His work in us as He will finish it to His glory.

There is a danger of engaging in running that race for the purpose of obtaining salvation for that would be denying Him as our Savior for doing that when we are saved.

To try to keep yourself saved and to try to get yourself into heavenis falling from grace.

We also remember our identification with the rest of the human race, sinners, to keep us humble and connected with the world Christ came to save.

With our "holier than thou" attitude, you don't think that unbelievers don't notice when Christians succumb to sexual temptation, or substance abuse, or greed, or what-have-you? No wonder they call us hypocrites. We're no better than they are; they know it and we know it.

Principle: Our sin does not define who we are. The Lord wants us to be of good character, but we aren't holy because of our character, but in spite of it. Jesus is the gift of Salvation that takes a dead sinner and gives them life with faith.

Once saved by grace, those who are in Him, even when they sin, it is not counted as sin. This is true because all who have sinned perish, but "God is the God of the living".

We obey God out of love and thanksgiving, not out of feeling a need must measure up to merit getting saved!

Even when we sin, guess what, we are still imputed righteousness and saved, because He does not see our sin! We are now covered in His blood!!

Soul sleep is when we are sinning so much, that our testimony for Jesus is being destroyed, so that God will kill our bodies, in order to His testimony on earth. We are still saved, of course, but God has to take us home prematurely.

The natural man is the physical body born of the sin nature, so that we are basically born dead as sinners, because of the sinful seed of Adam. When we are saved, our soul is now forever in heavenly places, while our bodies are now the old man of sin on earth. So though we ought not to sin, as no one should, we of course still sin in our bodies due to the sin nature in our flesh and the lust of the world in our old hearts. We cannot stop from sinning, though we ought, but we do stop paying the price for sinning spiritually in heaven.

Here's a real gem from this site:

"This means that you believe you are sin free. Everyone who admits that their life is not free of sin admits it. It is to some degree an act of humility that the Holy Spirit within them."

This confirms the false humility of unrighteous christian sinners, that think boasting of how sinful they are is humbling themselves before God.

Here are some classic examples from the other site:
Newsflash!!! You too are a totally depraved sinner. You sin daily. You deny this because you’re deceived. We are not deceived like you and know we are no better than anyone else on earth!!

We are sinners just as depraved as anyone else, and we are no different from them, except we are saved by grace!!

So, OSAS teaching is that Christians are still sinners bodily, but the soul in heaven is no more judged for sinning on earth.

The soul is forever preserved sinless in heaven, waiting to receive the resurrected spiritual body, while the old sinful body still sins on earth, just like any other sinner born with sin nature from Adam.

If you agree with any of the quotes, then let me know and why.

I can’t tell when you are quoting or when you are giving commentary, the two are so much alike.

 

[crossnote]

Committed sinners just don't want anyone not sinning on earth in their own day.

You don’t seem to understand. Those who are born again have a new nature, a nature that wants to please God. Have you been born again?

 

[rogerg]

You don’t seem to understand. Those who are born again have a new nature, a nature that wants to please God. Have you been born again?

You know, crossnote, I've found it very difficult to understand why some (maybe most) of those on this thread cannot
accept a gospel of mercy and grace which Christ brought to fruition by His offering (not their offering), but instead, are always falling back upon works for contributing to salvation. I think I've finally figured it out. The reason is that the church they belong to has a gospel that is other than, or is in addition to, the Bible alone. In their eyes, they are unable to accept the Bible as being God's sole source of authority of things spiritual. They perceive their church's statement of faith and its related doctrines, as the Bible's equal, or more importantly, even as its superior. That is why, no matter how many verses we might post that clearly demonstrates grace, they put them and the Bible in the back seat, using only as a tool when it suits them. They have never come to the realization that Bible alone, and in its entirety, is the word of God.

 

[Hopeful]

OSAS is for sinners more than pleased to be telling sinners, how they are just as much sinners as any other sinner on earth.
They are pleased sinners celebrating grace.
They don't just please all men, but are more than pleased to sin like all men.
The true delusion of OSAS is that sinners can sin with grace, and be pleased about not being judged for it.
It's Lucifer's first wish: to disobey God and be a god unto himself.

Yeah, I know.
There are dozens (hundreds?) of doctrines that accommodate sin.
By remaining pure, we can pick them out of the "noise".

 

[Hopeful]

You know, crossnote, I've found it very difficult to understand why some (maybe most) of those on this thread cannot
accept a gospel of mercy and grace which Christ brought to fruition by His offering (not their offering), but instead, are always falling back upon works for contributing to salvation. I think I've finally figured it out. The reason is that the church they belong to has a gospel that is other than, or is in addition to, the Bible alone. In their eyes, they are unable to accept the Bible as being God's sole source of authority of things spiritual. They perceive their church's statement of faith and its related doctrines, as the Bible's equal, or more importantly, even as its superior. That is why, no matter how many verses we might post that clearly demonstrates grace, they put them and the Bible in the back seat, using only as a tool when it suits them. They have never come to the realization that Bible alone, and in its entirety, is the word of God.

I like these verses from the bible...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
If the OSAS folks advocated walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, didn't sin, or had been made the righteous of God in Him, they might be worth following.
But they don't, and I didn't want to remain a man who was unrighteous and walked in the flesh.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You don’t seem to understand. Those who are born again have a new nature, a nature that wants to please God. Have you been born again?

I have a few questions.
1. Do you ask everyone who doesn’t ascribe to your view if they’ve been born again?

2. Do you know that asking people if they are born again demonstrates that you have no discernment if telling who is a believer and who isn’t?

3. If those born again have automatically a new nature, why do those new “natured” born again people write posts that don’t reflect that?

 

[crossnote]

You know, crossnote, I've found it very difficult to understand why some (maybe most) of those on this thread cannot
accept a gospel of mercy and grace which Christ brought to fruition by His offering (not their offering), but instead, are always falling back upon works for contributing to salvation. I think I've finally figured it out. The reason is that the church they belong to has a gospel that is other than, or is in addition to, the Bible alone. In their eyes, they are unable to accept the Bible as being God's sole source of authority of things spiritual. They perceive their church's statement of faith and its related doctrines, as the Bible's equal, or more importantly, even as its superior. That is why, no matter how many verses we might post that clearly demonstrates grace, they put them and the Bible in the back seat, using only as a tool when it suits them. They have never come to the realization that Bible alone, and in its entirety, is the word of God.

That sounds about right...

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2Th 2:10-12)

 

[crossnote]

I have a few questions.
1. Do you ask everyone who doesn’t ascribe to your view if they’ve been born again?

Do you butt in on most conversations not addressed to you? I believe I was addressing RBDERRICK

2. Do you know that asking people if they are born again demonstrates that you have no discernment if telling who is a believer and who isn’t?

I asked because I didn't want to assume he isn't born again. (tares/wheat)

3. If those born again have automatically a new nature, why do those new “natured” born again people write posts that don’t reflect that?

Reflect what? An ecumenical lying spirit? Or the telling of truth?
Those born again do 'automatically' have a new nature...

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2Co 5:17)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I like these verses from the bible...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)
"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
If the OSAS folks advocated walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh, didn't sin, or had been made the righteous of God in Him, they might be worth following.
But they don't, and I didn't want to remain a man who was unrighteous and walked in the flesh.

They define that as “not accepting a gospel of grace and mercy.”

It is interesting to note that false thinking, i.e. false theology, leads one have to accuse the brethren of not merely disagreeing, but rejecting the whole.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Do you butt in on most conversations not addressed to you? I believe I was addressing RBDERRICK


I asked because I didn't want to assume he isn't born again.


Reflect what? An ecumenical lying spirit? Or the telling of truth?
Those born again do 'automatically' have a new nature...

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2Co 5:17)

Where is new nature you claim you’re born with? Does you “accepting the gospel of grace and mercy” mean this is outcome?? no grace and no mercy towards others?

The rules are that all public conversations are public domain. If you want a private one, there are places for that. This isn’t one of them.

 

[crossnote]

Where is new nature you claim you’re born with? Does you “accepting the gospel of grace and mercy” mean this is outcome?? no grace and no mercy towards others?

The rules are that all public conversations are public domain. If you want a private one, there are places for that. This isn’t one of them.

Ask Jesus and John the Baptist that question...

Matthew 3:7 (NASB) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 12:34 (NASB) "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Matthew 23:33 (NASB) "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Luke 3:7 (NASB) So he (John the Baptist) began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?