Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course.
But there is no "pattern" into which every Christians will fit.
You can't judge a man unfaithful because he isn't giddy and smiling all day.

Jesus did not command us to be giddy and smiling all day. He commanded us to love others as we love ourselves.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How would I know I offended my brother unless he tells me?

This is a good question. I guess either he tells you (uncommon in our culture) or the Holy Spirit shines a light on that word or behavior as we see. But that is an excellent point.

 

[Hopeful]

My impression of believers who claim to be sinless is that the bar is pretty low. That is, what is sin is so narrowly defined that it’s easy to avoid. I’ve met a few over the years. Not bad people.

The bar is set within ability to obey Christ Jesus.
He said, Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is so hard about that?
I feel like you are looking for a "movie" Christian, with perfectly coifed hair and a gleaming smile.
Can't the plain looking, with a chipped tooth, bad knees, and no hair, be perfect in the sight of God too?
Don't judge a book by its cover.

(If anyone can find a proverb with that message I would appreciate your forwarding it to me so I don't have to cite it as "man's" wisdom.)

 

[Hopeful]

Actually you reject it. They feel you’ve rejected their thanks and feel bad for thanking you. They likely won’t make that mistake again.

I really don't think you can speak for "they".
Unless "they" told you how they feel.

 

[Hopeful]

I have the sense that your idea of the New Birth and Paul's teachings and mine are quite different.

Any current traditional Jew who has studied the 2nd temple period teachings of the Pharisees see both Our Lord and Paul as mainstream Pharisees.

Modern (and perhaps ancient as well) christianity has an evil caricature of the Pharisees that IMO is undeserved.

That is certainly something I had never before considered.
Paul was a Pharisee, but it didn't preclude him from associating, traveling, and eating with Gentiles.
His Phariseeism (?) was only evident when he needed the label in front of unbelieving Jews.
How other believing Pharisees conducted themselves, is really a mystery.
I'm pretty sure they would have been ostracized by the unbelieving Jews.

 

[Hopeful]

I am sure you are in right thinking.,.. I am glad to say,, we have different stages of faith
1st stage is... knowing and getting salvation,, this stage is not need any works, just faith is need.. Eph 2:8.
Salvation is free gift... there is no choice for discuss in this
2nd stage is ... we are saved to do good works to live as mentors as epistles for Christ and as model people to all other people in world,.. Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
this is an important different in our call and life with Christ..
May God bless you brother

I like that phrase..."epistles for Christ".
Thank God He made it possible to accomplish.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The bar is set within ability to obey Christ Jesus.
He said, Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is so hard about that?

Your neighbor includes those sinners you do not want to associate with lest you stain yourself. You need to treat them like you would like to be treated. That is, everyone, you need to treat everyone like that.

I feel like you are looking for a "movie" Christian, with perfectly coifed hair and a gleaming smile.

Very very wrong. I never said anything close to this. I feel like you just want to accuse me of wrong so you can dismiss my points (that you cannot answer.)

Can't the plain looking, with a chipped tooth, bad knees, and no hair, be perfect in the sight of God too?
Don't judge a book by its cover.

Judge a tree by its fruits. That is how one is to discern the heart of the other, but it takes a lot of time to review the evidence. Jesus loved and spent time with the sinners. He was not afraid of them.

(If anyone can find a proverb with that message I would appreciate your forwarding it to me so I don't have to cite it as "man's" wisdom.)

I do not think there is one. The reference to judging the heart instead of the looks is from Samuel when he was looking who he should anoint King. Jesus said the religion leaders were like white washed tombs full of dead bones...looking good on the outside but inside no understanding (dead.)

 

[Hopeful]

Dear brother and sister,

Do you really believe that no one can do anything good on their own strength? Nothing at all? Do you live like this?

What I am saying is while this sounds humble, you cannot live like this as it does not match there real world. There are good works that atheists do and they are not doing by faith or with God's help. God did not make us such that we cannot do anything good at all to anyone ever. Again, that sounds humble but if we think about it, it is saying that God made humans incapable of helping anyone ever, not a compliment to God.

The truth that you see every day is that we can do good for others, we just don't want to do so at times. We can give a little one a cup of cold water. We can help the man laying in the street beaten up by thugs. We can go and find the lost sheep or kid. We can help a little old lady cross the street. As you go through your day, certainly you expect normal people to help others. If you are lost, you expect a stranger to help you. You do not expect only God can help them help you.

It is freeing to have a view in your mind that matches the world outside your head. It is harder to insist upon a view that is not true in real life. Just some thoughts.

Motive is the difference between believer's and unbeliever's "good works".
For the glory of God, or for the glory of self.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That is certainly something I had never before considered.
Paul was a Pharisee, but it didn't preclude him from associating, traveling, and eating with Gentiles.
His Phariseeism (?) was only evident when he needed the label in front of unbelieving Jews.
How other believing Pharisees conducted themselves, is really a mystery.
I'm pretty sure they would have been ostracized by the unbelieving Jews.

I am pretty sure that many of the Pharisee crowd became believers in Christ. They did not see a problem with being a Pharisee and believing in Jesus. That is something that we, as Gentiles, think. (Being called a Pharisee is not a compliment at all.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Motive is the difference between believer's and unbeliever's "good works".
For the glory of God, or for the glory of self.

Actually, most people helping others aren't thinking about either. They are just loving another as they love themselves. They also often forget the good they just did but go on their way. No glory involved in helping an old lady cross the street. One does it and forgets about it. The old lady and God do not forget. This is right.

 

[Hopeful]

Your neighbor includes those sinners you do not want to associate with lest you stain yourself. You need to treat them like you would like to be treated. That is, everyone, you need to treat everyone like that.

Yes indeed, and as there are so few of Christians, it sees like everyone is an unbeliever who needs help.

Very very wrong. I never said anything close to this. I feel like you just want to accuse me of wrong so you can dismiss my points (that you cannot answer.)

My responses have been based on your observation of a man who said he didn't commit sin, but you judged him unChristlike.
What were your reasons for that conclusion?

Judge a tree by its fruits. That is how one is to discern the heart of the other, but it takes a lot of time to review the evidence. Jesus loved and spent time with the sinners. He was not afraid of them.

He also didn't succumb to their traits.
I don't go to bars or strip clubs with fliers.
Does that make me unChristlike?

I do not think there is one. The reference to judging the heart instead of the looks is from Samuel when he was looking who he should anoint King. Jesus said the religion leaders were like white washed tombs full of dead bones...looking good on the outside but inside no understanding (dead.)

Both, good similes.
Thankyou.

 

[Hopeful]

I am pretty sure that many of the Pharisee crowd became believers in Christ. They did not see a problem with being a Pharisee and believing in Jesus. That is something that we, as Gentiles, think. (Being called a Pharisee is not a compliment at all.)

I wonder how they fared during the persecution that arose after the stoning of Stephen.
Especially Nicodemus.

 

[Hopeful]

Actually, most people helping others aren't thinking about either. They are just loving another as they love themselves. They also often forget the good they just did but go on their way. No glory involved in helping an old lady cross the street. One does it and forgets about it. The old lady and God do not forget. This is right.

I can't speak for the unGodly, but we all know their deeds are not done for the glory of God.

 

[crossnote]

How other believing Pharisees conducted themselves, is really a mystery.
I'm pretty sure they would have been ostracized by the unbelieving Jews.

Think Nicodemus...

John 3:1 (KJV) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

John 7:50-52 (KJV) Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

John 19:39 (KJV) And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can't speak for the unGodly, but we all know their deeds are not done for the glory of God.

God has to get glory out of a deed before it can be done for his glory. Us saying it is doesn’t mean it is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I wonder how they fared during the persecution that arose after the stoning of Stephen.
Especially Nicodemus.

Some, “not a few” believed, the Bible says. As in any wave of persecution, some suffer, some are killed and some escape. Doesn’t mean Pharisees weren’t convinced Jesus was the Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes indeed, and as there are so few of Christians, it sees like everyone is an unbeliever who needs help.

My responses have been based on your observation of a man who said he didn't commit sin, but you judged him unChristlike.

That’s because his deeds did not reflect Christ on the level of sinless. Again, it isn’t good dental work, it’s the fruit of the HS in a life or not.

He also didn't succumb to their traits.
I don't go to bars or strip clubs with fliers.
Does that make me unChristlike?

No

Both, good similes.
Thankyou.

Welcome

 

[Hopeful]

Think Nicodemus...

John 3:1 (KJV) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

John 7:50-52 (KJV) Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

John 19:39 (KJV) And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

I wonder if he ever spoke up about his assumed belief.

 

[Hopeful]

That’s because his deeds did not reflect Christ on the level of sinless. Again, it isn’t good dental work, it’s the fruit of the HS in a life or not.

So you saw him commit a sin?

 

[crossnote]

I wonder if he ever spoke up about his assumed belief.

Perhaps his bringing 100lbs of myrrh and aloe was loud enough? (Jn 19:39)