Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[daninthelionsden]

No, I didn't misunderstand you.
I stated:
WE ARE SAVED BY OUR WORKS.

That is MY statement.

My question now would be:
Where does faith come in since I believe we are saved by works?

(putting forth an argument---no Christian believes they are saved by their works.
but let's go with it for a m oment....
It'll help to understand more about faith)

I'm gonna butt in for a sec. Fran, please look on the Youtube channel, The Ark Files. There is a video named either The Ark And The Blood or vice versa. I really want to know what you think of it. Please. Is it believable?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you saw him commit a sin?

I didn’t say that. What you are missing is what a life of holiness means in the positive. You see only a lack of sin. You don’t see the wisdom that the fear of the Lord brings. Those who walk that close with God bring more that a lack of sin.

 

[rthom7]

Dear brother and sister,

Do you really believe that no one can do anything good on their own strength? Nothing at all? Do you live like this?

What I am saying is while this sounds humble, you cannot live like this as it does not match there real world. There are good works that atheists do and they are not doing by faith or with God's help. God did not make us such that we cannot do anything good at all to anyone ever. Again, that sounds humble but if we think about it, it is saying that God made humans incapable of helping anyone ever, not a compliment to God.

The truth that you see every day is that we can do good for others, we just don't want to do so at times. We can give a little one a cup of cold water. We can help the man laying in the street beaten up by thugs. We can go and find the lost sheep or kid. We can help a little old lady cross the street. As you go through your day, certainly you expect normal people to help others. If you are lost, you expect a stranger to help you. You do not expect only God can help them help you.

It is freeing to have a view in your mind that matches the world outside your head. It is harder to insist upon a view that is not true in real life. Just some thoughts.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,

Sure Dorothy there are many who do good pious deeds using their own human strength, but such human effort means nothing to God in terms of their salvation.

Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Than there are those who see humans in need but choose not to claim a faithful promise for Jesus love to help them, so they speak instead vanity, or words without God, again they lack the works of God in their lives.

Ac 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

Finally there are those who see needs of love, but claim a prayer promise of faith, to empower them with Jesus flowing in their life unto good works.

We can say as a gardner to our neighbour come and see the beautiful flowers I have grown. Or knowing our works are only achieved through Jesus, say, come and see the beautiful garden Jesus has grown through me. Often our words tell others what powers are flowing in us.

Ac 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (KJV)

Often helping others, we can help them if they also perceive the faith for help. So public wonders of Jesus are uncommon. However claiming a prayer promise in a supporter of God is a daily and easier task, in which we see and ask, and await for the power of God to do, which flows instantly in most cases, and so the love response flows. To an outsider looking at works one cannot tell where the power is coming from, human endeavour, or human prayer promise of faith in Jesus power, both on the outside look and feel similar. By their fruits ye shall know them, Jesus says. God sees the inside, humans only see the outside.

"We can go and find the lost sheep or kid. " Your example here is nice, how many of us would rise at 11pm at night seeking the homeless sheltering lost. You would need courage, and faith to wander through the cities at night . Or run a soup kitchen 12 hours into the night, free for the homeless. Why are there homeless people in Australia, when each one receives social money benefits?

I was once a missionary in Papua New Guinea, for long time, and I used to carry fuel, rope and tools to help cars stranded, stuck in rivers, or broken down. There are many friendly people and some rascals, and nobody gets social benefits. Many choose to be homeless living in Port Moresby rather than living in their customary garden homes in the bush. Even our own Aborigines do not have customary land, free of rates, and unable to be bought or sold. Some places have good things, and some not so good things.

Hope this helps a little Dorothy. Shalom

 

[rthom7]

I'd like to say this to you and rogerg :

I've heard many times in these years I've been on this forum, and also on others, that works DO NOT SAVE US.
Well, I don't know any Christian person that believes that, so why it's repeated ad nauseam, I don't know.

Of course we do works because of our salvation and because of the love we have for God and for all humanity.

So what does this prove exactly?
Jesus said WE MUST act and do...behavior and good deeds/works.
It's not enough just to be neutral and not do evil.
That will not promote the Kingdom of God here on earth.
We must DO GOOD so that the Kingdom of God can be lived and so that the world can be a better place because we are in it. Be WE, I mean we Christians. If we're just like everyone else, what good are we?

So maybe we could become brave and actually state that good works KEEP US SAVED.
Yes. I think this is necessary and should be stated.
John tells us that if we do not abide, obey, live with, keep Jesus closes, the vinedresser (God Father) will throw that unfruitful branch away and it will dry up and burn.

That may sound scary and maybe some can't take it, but it's what John, an Apostle who loved Jesus and lived with Him during His entire ministry, stated in his gospel.

As long as we want to be with God there is no reason to fear anything John states because we're in the arms of God,
however, we also cannot DENY it.

I would say works are evidence of our salvation in us. Jesus did not come to earth and stand around doing nothing. He also came in the faith of His Father too. He also was not saved by His good works, Jesus was saved by the Faith in His Father. DId Jesus do nothing on earth? No , He allowed His Father to flow through him, producing many works.

In a similar way if we wish to be saved, we take the gift of salvation, who is a divine person with power, and daily we see and ask words from that person to allow salvation to act outwards from us. Of course salvation works and does love, because that is what Jesus is, a saving redeemer, and we are little candles of Jesus doing the same thing, through His powers, which we receive by faith.

If you are not active with this power, it is obvious you don't have salvation in you. There are differing levels of talents in all of us, Jesus offers to our abilities. But the point is, if salvation is in you, you will be active claiming his promises of power by faith and doing the same things Jesus did.

SO I am agreeing with you, works are a vital sign of an active salvation within you.

 

[rthom7]

They are temporal?
Where does the NT state that?

So when Jesus said to DO something,
He didn't really mean it literally??

Matthew 24:45-51 Jesus said:
45“Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48“But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’
49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 25:34 Jesus said:
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’


Matthew 25:41-45 Jesus said:
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


As James said it:
Faith without works is a dead faith of no use to anyone.
James 2:17,20

I agree, if you have no active salvation within you, you have no salvation.

This is the same as saying, if you have no active relationship to Jesus, you have no relationship.

The five foolish virgins lost their salvation because they ran out of HS oil. Yet they believed in Jesus, but ran out of activeness.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The words of promised power and the faith of Jesus go hand in hand.

 

[jaybo]

I would say works are evidence of our salvation in us. Jesus did not come to earth and stand around doing nothing. He also came in the faith of His Father too. He also was not saved by His good works, Jesus was saved by the Faith in His Father. DId Jesus do nothing on earth? No , He allowed His Father to flow through him, producing many works.

In a similar way if we wish to be saved, we take the gift of salvation, who is a divine person with power, and daily we see and ask words from that person to allow salvation to act outwards from us. Of course salvation works and does love, because that is what Jesus is, a saving redeemer, and we are little candles of Jesus doing the same thing, through His powers, which we receive by faith.

If you are not active with this power, it is obvious you don't have salvation in you. There are differing levels of talents in all of us, Jesus offers to our abilities. But the point is, if salvation is in you, you will be active claiming his promises of power by faith and doing the same things Jesus did.

SO I am agreeing with you, works are a vital sign of an active salvation within you.

What about people who can't, for one reason or another, perform "works". Are they doomed to hell?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,

Sure Dorothy there are many who do good pious deeds using their own human strength, but such human effort means nothing to God in terms of their salvation.

Most people who do good things helping others are not thinking of salvation. Good deeds ought not to be limited to pious deeds. They ought to be measured by the good they do others and I do not see that God is only interested in religious pious deeds or only interested in salvation. What did he say in Micah 6:8? Look at the Ten Commandments. We do not see in the laws of God on man an interest in man mainly going to heaven or having their sins forgiven. Jesus said giving a cup of cold water to a child is recognized by God as a good deed and that person will not lose their reward. That was not a pious deed. That was not trying to establish righteousness. That was doing to the others as you would like to be done to. Salvation is not the only thing on God's mind.

Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Than there are those who see humans in need but choose not to claim a faithful promise for Jesus love to help them, so they speak instead vanity, or words without God, again they lack the works of God in their lives.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. I cannot think of a real life situation where people do this but I confess I do not really understand what choosing not to claim a faithful promise for Jesus to love to help them means.

Ac 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

Finally there are those who see needs of love, but claim a prayer promise of faith, to empower them with Jesus flowing in their life unto good works.

Ah, now I think I see what you might mean. You believe a christian can

1. see a need of love, does that mean the person needs to love others or receive love?
2. claim a prayer promise of faith
3. to empower them (which, the one praying or the one needing) with Jesus flowing in their life so that they do good works.

Do you do this at church so that after you pray for those who you see have a need of love they are filled with love and report that from that day forward they went out the did good works?

You ought to know that this is not personal towards you but I am a scientist and I test theories in the crucible of real life. If a person has a theory about something, I look and see is this is how it really works. The above description of how good works occur is not something I have ever seen so I ask you if this is how it works in your life and ministry.

We can say as a gardner to our neighbour come and see the beautiful flowers I have grown. Or knowing our works are only achieved through Jesus, say, come and see the beautiful garden Jesus has grown through me. Often our words tell others what powers are flowing in us.

I think the other is being a Pharisee pious. Growing beautiful flowers is something atheists do as well as believers. Jesus is not growing flowers through anyone. He made them to grow beautifully with certain particular care given by the gardner. It sounds like the modern super spiritual pharisee and does not give glory to God at all. Giving glory to God does not happen when others roll their eyeballs as such prideful statements. Make no mistake, that is pride pure. Others might grow flowers but I have almighty God growing flowers through me, unlike you, you miserable lowly atheist. I can picture this scene for those who insist everything they accomplish, Jesus did.

Boss: Frank, did you do those reports on the Mackenzie Account?
Super spiritual Christian: To tell you the truth, my hands did the work but Jesus was doing it through me.
Boss: Well, can you tell Jesus next time to be more careful on the acquisition figuring, it was off by a significant amount.

Ac 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (KJV)

Often helping others, we can help them if they also perceive the faith for help. So public wonders of Jesus are uncommon. However claiming a prayer promise in a supporter of God is a daily and easier task, in which we see and ask, and await for the power of God to do, which flows instantly in most cases, and so the love response flows. To an outsider looking at works one cannot tell where the power is coming from, human endeavour, or human prayer promise of faith in Jesus power, both on the outside look and feel similar. By their fruits ye shall know them, Jesus says. God sees the inside, humans only see the outside.

This is an interesting scripture to use in the presentation below. I say this because you wrote that to the outsider looking at works one cannot tell where the power is coming from, but clearly the public healing of a man was not one of those. Now the atheists made assumptions that were wrong but they knew that this kind of power was not human. Which God released the power, they did not see. But they did see that the divine had occurred.

Also, when Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, he was talking about knowing the inside. It is not true that only God sees the inside. We can see the inside of man as well. The scripture you quote above shows Paul seeing the inside of a man.

"We can go and find the lost sheep or kid. " Your example here is nice, how many of us would rise at 11pm at night seeking the homeless sheltering lost. You would need courage, and faith to wander through the cities at night . Or run a soup kitchen 12 hours into the night, free for the homeless. Why are there homeless people in Australia, when each one receives social money benefits?

Is this something the christians do where you live? They get up on random nights at midnight and seek the homeless? as to why there are homeless there in Australia is the same question as to why there are homeless in Germany. I assume it is because they want to be free (from housing, etc.)

I was once a missionary in Papua New Guinea, for long time, and I used to carry fuel, rope and tools to help cars stranded, stuck in rivers, or broken down. There are many friendly people and some rascals, and nobody gets social benefits. Many choose to be homeless living in Port Moresby rather than living in their customary garden homes in the bush. Even our own Aborigines do not have customary land, free of rates, and unable to be bought or sold. Some places have good things, and some not so good things.

Hope this helps a little Dorothy. Shalom

I worked as a missionary in the Philippines. We did medical work for those who had no medical care. Teaches you things that living in the first world cannot do except under special circumstances.

I will tell you a better way than to refuse any compliment a man might give you. That is, to cultivate a passion for truth in your heart that drives you ask God to show you truth and live by it. What does this mean in terms of the compliment on flowers? I means that growing flowers, beautiful or award winning even, is not very valuable in the eyes of God or man.

Another better way that to refuse compliments in a pious super spiritual (rather haughty sounding) rebuff, is to walk in the fear of the Lord. That is, the approval or admiration of man does not weight very much to the man who walks in the fear of the Lord. He is seeking God's approval. So if a man compliments you, you can thank him knowing that what you accomplished though even great in the eyes of man, looks very different to God. And God's view is the only one that matters. This precludes being proud. No man who has seen himself as God sees him is temped to be proud for very long and so compliments can be received and the warmth returned without fear.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree, if you have no active salvation within you, you have no salvation.

This is the same as saying, if you have no active relationship to Jesus, you have no relationship.

The five foolish virgins lost their salvation because they ran out of HS oil. Yet they believed in Jesus, but ran out of activeness.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The words of promised power and the faith of Jesus go hand in hand.

Notice “which keep the commandments of God” is the condition for said power and faith if Jesus.

 

[rthom7]

Most people who do good things helping others are not thinking of salvation. Good deeds ought not to be limited to pious deeds. They ought to be measured by the good they do others and I do not see that God is only interested in religious pious deeds or only interested in salvation. What did he say in Micah 6:8? Look at the Ten Commandments. We do not see in the laws of God on man an interest in man mainly going to heaven or having their sins forgiven. Jesus said giving a cup of cold water to a child is recognized by God as a good deed and that person will not lose their reward. That was not a pious deed. That was not trying to establish righteousness. That was doing to the others as you would like to be done to. Salvation is not the only thing on God's mind.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. I cannot think of a real life situation where people do this but I confess I do not really understand what choosing not to claim a faithful promise for Jesus to love to help them means.

Ah, now I think I see what you might mean. You believe a christian can

1. see a need of love, does that mean the person needs to love others or receive love?
2. claim a prayer promise of faith
3. to empower them (which, the one praying or the one needing) with Jesus flowing in their life so that they do good works.

Do you do this at church so that after you pray for those who you see have a need of love they are filled with love and report that from that day forward they went out the did good works?

You ought to know that this is not personal towards you but I am a scientist and I test theories in the crucible of real life. If a person has a theory about something, I look and see is this is how it really works. The above description of how good works occur is not something I have ever seen so I ask you if this is how it works in your life and ministry.

I think the other is being a Pharisee pious. Growing beautiful flowers is something atheists do as well as believers. Jesus is not growing flowers through anyone. He made them to grow beautifully with certain particular care given by the gardner. It sounds like the modern super spiritual pharisee and does not give glory to God at all. Giving glory to God does not happen when others roll their eyeballs as such prideful statements. Make no mistake, that is pride pure. Others might grow flowers but I have almighty God growing flowers through me, unlike you, you miserable lowly atheist. I can picture this scene for those who insist everything they accomplish, Jesus did.

Boss: Frank, did you do those reports on the Mackenzie Account?
Super spiritual Christian: To tell you the truth, my hands did the work but Jesus was doing it through me.
Boss: Well, can you tell Jesus next time to be more careful on the acquisition figuring, it was off by a significant amount.


This is an interesting scripture to use in the presentation below. I say this because you wrote that to the outsider looking at works one cannot tell where the power is coming from, but clearly the public healing of a man was not one of those. Now the atheists made assumptions that were wrong but they knew that this kind of power was not human. Which God released the power, they did not see. But they did see that the divine had occurred.

Also, when Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits, he was talking about knowing the inside. It is not true that only God sees the inside. We can see the inside of man as well. The scripture you quote above shows Paul seeing the inside of a man.

Is this something the christians do where you live? They get up on random nights at midnight and seek the homeless? as to why there are homeless there in Australia is the same question as to why there are homeless in Germany. I assume it is because they want to be free (from housing, etc.)

I worked as a missionary in the Philippines. We did medical work for those who had no medical care. Teaches you things that living in the first world cannot do except under special circumstances.

I will tell you a better way than to refuse any compliment a man might give you. That is, to cultivate a passion for truth in your heart that drives you ask God to show you truth and live by it. What does this mean in terms of the compliment on flowers? I means that growing flowers, beautiful or award winning even, is not very valuable in the eyes of God or man.

Another better way that to refuse compliments in a pious super spiritual (rather haughty sounding) rebuff, is to walk in the fear of the Lord. That is, the approval or admiration of man does not weight very much to the man who walks in the fear of the Lord. He is seeking God's approval. So if a man compliments you, you can thank him knowing that what you accomplished though even great in the eyes of man, looks very different to God. And God's view is the only one that matters. This precludes being proud. No man who has seen himself as God sees him is temped to be proud for very long and so compliments can be received and the warmth returned without fear.

You write well Dorothy, and not far from the kingdom of God. I wish others understood faith as it should be, but alas many of us fall short. My faviourite verse among many is God snatches us as a firebrand from the fire and saves some who might only do one faithful work in their entire life. Some of us work more, some work less. Jesus does not cut worthless stone, we are all precious in His sight. Shalom

 

[rthom7]

What about people who can't, for one reason or another, perform "works". Are they doomed to hell?

Have a read of what faith is in action, and tell me if you can do works of faith in Jesus, any child can, and it's so easy....

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-81.htm This is simple prayer in faith, ask Jesus to wake you for worship at specific times.

Some have their are as many as 3000+ prayer promises of faith in the Word...

The principle is simply

Ho 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

We take His word, speaking them in a prayer in your mind, and allow the power specifically asked for, to flow in you. This is how we guard the ten commandments describing the love from God.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James is talking about people who know prayer promises of faith but not not prayer them, thus the power flow of God never flows. There are three problems with this, the person is presumptuous, or proud or selfishness.

Another thing I am beginning to discover is perhaps the relationship of asking and receiving and living in His faith becomes instinctive in you, that the surrender to His power is as water to a duck. And you live in His power, rather than making conscious efforts to prayer the prayers of faith over and over. But also I notice if I don't pray the promises the evil one comes and trips me up with missing that power, so it's a tricky thing learning to be humble and meek and abiding in our Saviour.

Shalom

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You write well Dorothy, and not far from the kingdom of God. I wish others understood faith as it should be, but alas many of us fall short. My faviourite verse among many is God snatches us as a firebrand from the fire and saves some who might only do one faithful work in their entire life. Some of us work more, some work less. Jesus does not cut worthless stone, we are all precious in His sight. Shalom

You also write well. Your focus is more on the salvation of man rather than the things of God, but it’s a start.

My favorite verse is;

You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength.

My heart’s desire is to hear “well done good and faithful servant.” I tasted what it is to please Him and that very surprising experience sparked a flame that burns stronger each year.

Make no mistake, there is no loving God in the above manner without loving people. That is, not just loving them to get them saved but loving them here as well which is why Jesus healed bodies. He loved people, not just souls.

 

[rogerg]

Most people who do good things helping others are not thinking of salvation. Good deeds ought not to be limited to pious deeds. They ought to be measured by the good they do others and I do not see that God is only interested in religious pious deeds or only interested in salvation. What did he say in Micah 6:8? Look at the Ten Commandments. We do not see in the laws of God on man an interest in man mainly going to heaven or having their sins forgiven. Jesus said giving a cup of cold water to a child is recognized by God as a good deed and that person will not lose their reward. That was not a pious deed. That was not trying to establish righteousness. That was doing to the others as you would like to be done to. Salvation is not the only thing on God's mind.

1) How do you know the intent of the "most" in the doing of their works?
2) For those who believe that they are saved by works, or by the contribution of their works, what do you
think those works would are, and if they do, then why wouldn't that be their motivation for good deeds?
3) Giving cold water is symbolic of sharing the gospel
4) The "whatsoever ye would that that men should do unto you do ye even to them" IS the sharing of the gospel. What could be more important than that-- for what else would you want done to yourself that is greater?

 

[rogerg]

Where does faith come in since I believe we are saved by works?

You are saying we are saved by our works? If that is true, then we remain under law, and all will be found
guilty before God - Christ would mean nothing.

Faith is a gift imparted to those chosen by God unto salvation

1Pe 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[rogerg]

I am not aware we can do any good works in our own strength however good our intentions are, you should perhaps read my study of faith and after reading this see if you agree with this study...I would appreciate some input, as I am trying myself to understand what faith is and how the works of Jesus flow into us, as we choose them.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm a study of amanuah (faith)

Do good intentions count if they lead to the wrong end?
Guess I'll have to disagree with your article. And as with everything spiritual, we should turn
to the Bible to find its own explanations and definitions of words - the Bible is fully complete withing itself

Here is faith described:

[Heb 11:1 KJV]
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Rom 4:5, 14 KJV]
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ... 14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1) How do you know the intent of the "most" in the doing of their works?

Easy, by observing what they do afterwards? Does their right hand not know what their left hand did? Tells you they did it for the recipient. Do they tell others what good they just did, it was not done for the recipient.

2) For those who believe that they are saved by works, or by the contribution of their works, what do you
think those works would are, and if they do, then why wouldn't that be their motivation for good deeds?

I have never met a single Christian who believed that they are saved by works except older Catholics. The younger catholics I know do not think this. I think this is a straw man argument.

3) Giving cold water is symbolic of sharing the gospel

No it is not. You render every good thing a man can do for others suddenly becomes only spiritual. Let the people dye of thirst but share some words instead. Reminds me of tithing the mint and ignoring the weightier matters of the law.

4) The "whatsoever ye would that that men should do unto you do ye even to them" IS the sharing of the gospel. What could be more important than that-- for what else would you want done to yourself that is greater?

Jesus healed some people and did not tell them the Gospel at least it is not recored that he did. The NT says he healed a lot of people and it does not say that he gave the gospel to a lot of people and a lot were saved. He did teach and preach, but he really loved men and women and children and did not see them merely as souls to get saved so they avoid hell. And not all of his teaching was on how to get saved.

You see, God also made the material world and he cares for the needs of people. That is part of loving them. He does not see men and women as souls to get saved so they avoid hell when they die.

But there are those christians who ignore material needs and merely give people words....the Gospel to be sure, but words to people who are starving or cold or ill or otherwise. Just words. Jesus and his apostles came In power not just words.

 

[rogerg]

Easy, by observing what they do afterwards? Does their right hand not know what their left hand did? Tells you they did it for the recipient. Do they tell others what good they just did, it was not done for the recipient.

Not definitive it is your opinion. If they believe they are saved by works, then what are the works, and why?

I have never met a single Christian who believed that they are saved by works except older Catholics. The younger catholics I know do not think this. I think this is a straw man argument.

Again, your opinion. Many denominations believe in works plus grace for salvation. I won't identify them now. For example, many believe their faith is what brings salvation, but faith is a work, so those who believe their faith is of their doing, actually are believing in works.

No it is not. You render every good thing a man can do for others suddenly becomes only spiritual. Let the people dye of thirst but share some words instead. Reminds me of tithing the mint and ignoring the weightier matters of the law.

Nothing is as important as salvation, especially in God's eyes - that's is the sole reason that He sent Christ to this world.
Judgment, mercy and grace ARE the weightier matters of the law. Doing good isn't wrong, but neither
does it acquaint anyone with eternal issues and questions of salvation - unless, that is, it is the sharing of the gospel.

Jesus healed some people and did not tell them the Gospel at least it is not recored that he did. The NT says he healed a lot of people and it does not say that he gave the gospel to a lot of people and a lot were saved. He did teach and preach, but he really loved men and women and children and did not see them merely as souls to get saved so they avoid hell. And not all of his teaching was on how to get saved.

His actions on earth IS the gospel itself. The things done by Him while here, to those to whom He gave/gives eyes to see, were apparent to them as such. His actions were not intended to convince everyone.
It is responsibility of those saved to explain His actions and make visible to them that they were demonstrations/conformation/validation of Christ as Saviour.

[Mat 13:10-11 KJV]
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

You see, God also made the material world and he cares for the needs of people. That is part of loving them. He does not see men and women as souls to get saved so they avoid hell when they die.

Oh yes, He does see them that way. In the physical body, everyone born to this world, dies.
However, he provides for bodily needs while this world continues, but His heart is to salvation.

[2Co 2:15-17 KJV]
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

But there are those christians who ignore material needs and merely give people words....the Gospel to be sure, but words to people who are starving or cold or ill or otherwise. Just words. Jesus and his apostles came In power not just words.

Christians are to render help with things carnal/physical to those in need - especially to other Christians-- however, that help while admirable, does not address the weightier matters of things spiritual - things eternal.
You may think my statements are a red herring - I think that yours are of trying to turn a spiritual gospel, into a secular, humanistic gospel focused upon the values of this world not of the next.

 

[Hopeful]

Perhaps his bringing 100lbs of myrrh and aloe was loud enough? (Jn 19:39)

I meant, spoke in defense of Christ to other Pharisees.
Especially after the resurrection.

 

[Hopeful]

I didn’t say that. What you are missing is what a life of holiness means in the positive. You see only a lack of sin. You don’t see the wisdom that the fear of the Lord brings. Those who walk that close with God bring more that a lack of sin.

Describe your ideal Christian.
Would he be a homeless guy running with a gang of other nomads?
A tree killer, with no respect for the authorities?
A xenophobe who shuns other nationalities?
One not averse to calling a spade a spade?

I recognize that Christians are anxious to help others in need, and willing to give the coat off their back, but you judged that man without providing details.

 

[crossnote]

I meant, spoke in defense of Christ to other Pharisees.
Especially after the resurrection.

Ok, I guess your use of 'his assumed belief' threw me off. I took it that Nicodemus had a genuine and real faith.
From the verses I gave you can see a growth pattern in him, from stealthily coming to Jesus at night (Jn 3), to questioning the Pharisees (Jn 7:50) to putting his faith into action (Jn 19:39)
He is only mentioned in the Book of John, so, anything else is mere speculation.

 

[rthom7]

You also write well. Your focus is more on the salvation of man rather than the things of God, but it’s a start.

My favorite verse is;

You shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength.

My heart’s desire is to hear “well done good and faithful servant.” I tasted what it is to please Him and that very surprising experience sparked a flame that burns stronger each year.

Make no mistake, there is no loving God in the above manner without loving people. That is, not just loving them to get them saved but loving them here as well which is why Jesus healed bodies. He loved people, not just souls.

http://spiritualsprings.org/ss-1513.htm

This is my understanding of what Faith is and how you get more faith each day.

In Ancient Hebrew the word means "The strong flow over the nations from the Divine Being"

The way you get this flow is simply by speaking his words in the right attitude of prayer.

Read through the study, for I value your opinions.

When faith flows in you, it is termed good works. Shalom