Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Hopeful]

If faith is a gift then how could we say 'believing' is a work?

We can't.
Even though we must choose to believe.
But there are those who say hearing and believing are works, not to mention those who say repentance and baptism are works.
They are all gift from God for our salvation.

The only "works" Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law.

 

[crossnote]

We can't.
Even though we must choose to believe.
But there are those who say hearing and believing are works, not to mention those who say repentance and baptism are works.
They are all gift from God for our salvation.

The only "works" Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law.

Ok, I suppose I was confused by your quote to Rogerg…”Hearing, and believing are "works" if you are intent on holding to that false doctrine that relieves you of any responsibility for yourself.”

 

[rogerg]

Not everything.
Hearing, and believing are "works" if you are intent on holding to that false doctrine that relieves you of any responsibility for yourself.
The works Paul wrote against were circumcision and dietary laws.
And the rest of the customs of the Jews.

Really? So, who is the Saviour you or God- it has to be one or the other? Based upon your reply,
it appears you think you are: if you believe any of your actions can invoke salvation, then you
place yourself into the role of savior.

 

[rogerg]

We can't.
Even though we must choose to believe.

If we must choose to believe, then believing becomes our work.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Doing all things as unto the Lord with a pure heart is simply first things first.

No man can do anything as unto the Lord with a heart of lust for sin, whether loading a dishwasher, or robbing a bank.

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1 Sam 16)

Of course, the dishwasher and the bank are not the same, but if the heart is still uncleansed by the Spirit of Christ, then all bodily deeds are just sinful apples and oranges.

The simple point being, that so long as lust for sin remains in the heart, no man is born and justified of God, no matter how zealous he is for good works outwardly:

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. (1 Cor 13)

Thee can be no clean hands, without the heart first being cleaned.

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. (Ps 24)

I used to define all works as outward only, and was considered blameless in them.

Now, after the conviction of the Spirit, I define all works inwardly first, and need not even work at being blameless outwardly:

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11)

I was ignorantly building my own outward religion for Christ. Plenty of zeal, but still defiled within. It's why the Pharisees were so enraged when the man Jesus told them all their works were for naught and filthy rags to God.

It really is the one main reason that they had Him crucified: Pride.

As well as delivering the believers from this yoke of bondage of their own traditions and works:

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. (John 9)

The works Paul was against were the works of the Law.
He especially wrote against circumcision and dietary laws...for salvation.
Turning from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of past sins, and enduring faithfully till one's end are not the sort of works Paul condemned.

Paul was rebuking his fellow Jews, as well as his former self, of seeking to be righteous with God by works of the body only, without regard for inward faith and purity.

James was rebuking Christians for thinking faith alone without any doing of the truth was acceptable to God.

Hearing and agreeing with God is no better than the devils that know He is God, but do not His will.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Anything someone might attempt to do to effectuate their salvation is a work - nothing within our power can remove sin be they past, present, or future. That Jesus alone accomplished it on behalf of those He chose to salvation was only that He is Saviour - we are not.

What does 'effectuate' salvation mean? I read how faith is effectual to save, and the prayers of the righteous are effectual.

Is believing and obeying God from the heart 'effectuating' our salvation, and so we shouldn't be doing that? We should avoid doing anything that draws us closer to God, because that would be 'effectuating' our salvation?

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Confessing with our mouths the Lord Jesus is certainly an effectual work to be saved by. There are many in the world who have not the power to do that work, and so they cannot confess Him.

We are commanded to have rule over our minds, guard our hearts, and do His righteousness, and we are given power to do so.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Salvation and justification with God is a walk with God, a fellowship with God.

It takes two to tango.

If we are not doing our part to work out our own salvation, then we have no part in His body, not in His first resurrection of the saints.

So, you just let whatever thoughts come into your mind and just do them, because you have no rule over yourself? You just do whatever your mind and body want to do?

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Who repents for you? God? God doesn't need to do any repenting.

Many Christians are taught a bundh 'doctrinal' things to believe, but they have no practical value. It's just doctrinal words that sound good, but are meaningless when it comes to believing and doing the truth.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Really? So, who is the Saviour you or God- it has to be one or the other? Based upon your reply,
it appears you think you are: if you believe any of your actions can invoke salvation, then you
place yourself into the role of savior.

What does 'invoke' salvation mean? Do we 'invoke' God, when we call upon Him?

Once again, these are meaningless terms.

If faith is a gift then how could we say 'believing' is a work?

Try believing without works. It's dead.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith is not believing alone, which is dead, but is also the evidence of believing:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Without the evidence of believing, which is obedience, there is no substance.

The faith given as a gift is to be obeyed, not just agreed with:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Without the faith of Jesus, we cannot possibly obey Him, and disobedience to Him has none of His faith.

With God faith and love are action words.

With man thinking, imagining and intending are laudable, but with God it's nothing without doing the works thereof.

And with God, the first works are within the heart to purify ourselves of all last for sin and unrighteous thoughts to obey the devil:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Salvation and justification by Christ is partnership with Him to walk in His steps hand in hand, not just thinking about and agreeing with Him.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Anything someone might attempt to do to effectuate their salvation is a work - nothing within our power can remove sin be they past, present, or future. That Jesus alone accomplished it on behalf of those He chose to salvation was only that He is Saviour - we are not.

Jesus does the forgiving and washing clean with His blood.

But without confession and repentance, there is no forgiving and washing clean with His blood.

He did what we could not do for ourselves on the cross.

Now we do for ourselves what He will not do for us: Take up our own cross.

Do nothing salvation by do nothing faith is salvation of men's own minds, not the effectual working salvation of God.

The gift of the faith of Jesus is recieved to do it, not just to have it:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Doing the word begins within the heart to purify our hearts and minds of any thought that exalts itself against the will of God: we bring all our thoughts into obedience to Christ by His faith and power.

God doesn't do for us what we are commanded to do for ourselves, and are given faith and power to do so:

And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin.

 

[rogerg]

Is believing and obeying God from the heart 'effectuating' our salvation, and so we shouldn't be doing that? We should avoid doing anything that draws us closer to God, because that would be 'effectuating' our salvation?

If we believe from the heart, it can only be because we have first been given that belief from God as a gift. True biblical belief comes from God to each of those saved.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;

Confessing with our mouths the Lord Jesus is certainly an effectual work to be saved by. There are many in the world who have not the power to do that work, and so they cannot confess Him.

No one can truly confess with the mouth until the heart is changed, but only God can change the heart. A change of heart must come first.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

ut as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Salvation and justification with God is a walk with God, a fellowship with God.

It takes two to tango.

[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If we are not doing our part to work out our own salvation, then we have no part in His body, not in His first resurrection of the saints.

So, you just let whatever thoughts come into your mind and just do them, because you have no rule over yourself? You just do whatever your mind and body want to do?

First, as unworthy sinners, God through His mercy and grace, saves in spite of all that we are/were. From that salvation,
He gives a renewed spirit and mind. By that renewal do we come to comprehend, believe in and adopt true Christian attributes - not before

[Eph 4:21 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[Eph 4:24 KJV]
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Col 3:1 KJV] 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

Who repents for you? God? God doesn't need to do any repenting.

Even though it is a command, no one can truly repent from dead works unless and until that repentance is given to them from God. To those who do it is/was a gift, to those who do not, it is condemnation against them.
For those who Christ came to give salvation to, He has repented to the Father on their behalf. Because of that, do they
themselves repent from their dead works unto faith in Christ.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

The "a man" in that verse is Christ. Should we choose to boast of faith - that it is of ourselves- then it better have the works that Christ's faith had - which is/would be impossible. True faith has works at its core, but only Christ could produce true faith AND works to please the Father. We have been "shewed" (demonstrated), Christ's works and His faith in that He alone satisfied the Father's requirement. Christ's faith is reckoned to those He saves. Our faith does not produce salvation - instead it is given as a gift by God as a part of salvation. God is the Saviour, we are not.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Faith and works are constantly contrasted; faith is no work.

The "a man" in that verse is Christ.

No it isn't. The man is a deluded person who says "You have faith and I have works," thinking that will save him. To that, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

• Show me your faith apart from your works - a rhetorical statement that indicates an impossibility, since...
• I will show you my faith by my works - works clearly demonstrate faith, and they always go together. One cannot have works without faith, nor faith without works.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus does the forgiving and washing clean with His blood.

But without confession and repentance, there is no forgiving and washing clean with His blood.

Well, if that is true, then by confessing and repenting, we in effect save ourselves.

Do nothing salvation by do nothing faith is salvation of men's own minds, not the effectual working salvation of God.

The gift of the faith of Jesus is recieved to do it, not just to have it:

To "do" is to make it a work. We cannot be saved by our works. Instead, WE MUST BE saved and not try to save ourselves.

The gift of the faith of Jesus is recieved to do it, not just to have it:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Yes, but from salvation, not to salvation,

God doesn't do for us what we are commanded to do for ourselves, and are given faith and power to do so:

And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin.

God did/does everything necessary for salvation. That is why He has the title of Saviour, otherwise, He couldn't
rightfully have it. Again, that which we are commanded to do, we do because we have been saved, not to become saved.

 

[rogerg]

No it isn't. The man is a deluded person who says "You have faith and I have works," thinking that will save him. To that, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Really? Delineate from the Bible which works and how many of them we are to do satisfy the requirement? Christ alone
could demonstrate that in that His works and faith produced salvation. So, explain with specifics what we are to
do to satisfy it? If it can't be delignated, then for all practicable purposes, the verse would be meaningless -- the verse has to be self-contained enough to provide us a standard, which will allow us to know when we've achieved it. Only with Christ being the "man' can the verse do that. The point of the verse is that Christ's faith must be, and is, reckoned to those saved - anything short of the reckoning of His faith, is failure.

 

[crossnote]

Without the evidence of believing, which is obedience, there is no substance.

How much obedience must one have until they are justified by faith?

(Rom 4:4) Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
(Rom 4:5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Here is our hope for 'enough' obedience...

(Rom 5:19) For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[RBDERRICK]

How much obedience must one have until they are justified by faith?

(Rom 4:4) Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
(Rom 4:5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Here is our hope for 'enough' obedience...

(Rom 5:19) For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

The one and only obedience that counts first:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

It is the first works we do, when we first love Him with the heart:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Nothing any man says or does is of any honor to God, so long as lusting to sin remains within the heart.

It is an obedience to the faith that keeps on obeying: once begun it must endure unto the end.

Our fight to obey Him is within the heart first.

And so, the only question that matters is being pure in heart or not:

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[RBDERRICK]

If we believe from the heart, it can only be because we have first been given that belief from God as a gift. True biblical belief comes from God to each of those saved.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory;



No one can truly confess with the mouth until the heart is changed, but only God can change the heart. A change of heart must come first.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them



[Jhn 6:37, 44 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ...
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


First, as unworthy sinners, God through His mercy and grace, saves in spite of all that we are/were. From that salvation,
He gives a renewed spirit and mind. By that renewal do we come to comprehend, believe in and adopt true Christian attributes - not before

[Eph 4:21 KJV]
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[Eph 4:24 KJV]
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Col 3:1 KJV] 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:


Even though it is a command, no one can truly repent from dead works unless and until that repentance is given to them from God. To those who do it is/was a gift, to those who do not, it is condemnation against them.
For those who Christ came to give salvation to, He has repented to the Father on their behalf. Because of that, do they
themselves repent from their dead works unto faith in Christ.



The "a man" in that verse is Christ. Should we choose to boast of faith - that it is of ourselves- then it better have the works that Christ's faith had - which is/would be impossible. True faith has works at its core, but only Christ could produce true faith AND works to please the Father. We have been "shewed" (demonstrated), Christ's works and His faith in that He alone satisfied the Father's requirement. Christ's faith is reckoned to those He saves. Our faith does not produce salvation - instead it is given as a gift by God as a part of salvation. God is the Saviour, we are not.

So far, we have had an interesting exchange, but now you say strange things like "Christ repents on our behalf".

I'll be glad to discern and respond to your teaching, but for now let's have a clear statement of it's results:

Are you still a sinner, or are you now a saint?

 

[crossnote]

The one and only obedience that counts first:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

It is the first works we do, when we first love Him with the heart:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Nothing any man says or does is of any honor to God, so long as lusting to sin remains within the heart.

It is an obedience to the faith that keeps on obeying: once begun it must endure unto the end.

Our fight to obey Him is within the heart first.

And so, the only question that matters is being pure in heart or not:

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

OIC, The Gospel is all about us and our obedience.
All glory and honor to man for his steadfast obedience and love.
Your doctrine goes hand in hand with humanism, where we are the reason for our salvation.

I didn't ask you 'what' obedience was needed to be justified before God, but 'how much' obedience. You, like most legalists can't answer that question.

 

[rogerg]

Are you still a sinner, or are you now a saint?

Don't understand your question - what does it relate to? Generally speaking, though, those whom God has saved cannot sin spiritually speaking, because they are no longer under law but under grace. Sin can only be imputed by the law to those under law: those saved are no longer under it. If you are asking me if I'm saved the answer is, well, I'm not sure, so I don't know of the two you mentioned which I fall under. Please read the following regarding law and sin. There is much more in the Bible regarding it.

[1Co 15:55-56 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[1Jo 3:9 KJV] 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[jasonc]

I think it is entirely possible to love our neighbors without loving God or even knowing Him. Not all people that are loving, caring, compassionate, etc., do so begrudgingly. Some are just loving, caring, compassionate individuals.

This is common in veterans community.
It's taught to be your brother's keeper .
Sadly ,I have gone to the veterans council over the local church to get assistance a few times

But that is another thread

 

[crossnote]

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This seems the heart of your error.

Jesus says differently...

John 15:5 (NASB) "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Looking up the definition of 'nothing' may be enlightening.

Are you still a sinner, or are you now a saint?

Both:
Sinner, when comparing my righteousness with the righteousness of Christ.
Saint, because I am set apart and clothed in Christ's righteousness.

 

[jasonc]

This is common in veterans community.
It's taught to be your brother's keeper .
Sadly ,I have gone to the veterans council over the local church to get assistance a few times

But that is another thread

Most. Churches couldn't unless they have the large wealthy donors that my county does fit vets .

Even in Florida my county is the only one who has what it has .

They pay for roofs,septic tanks ,housing of need.ptsd support groups.


A small church can't do that .