Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[Runmyramble]

True. It's called things that accompany salvation.

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (Heb 6)

It is no coincidence, that those separating salvation from doing righteousness, are always the same who justify their sinning, and never preach righteousness.

They are only talk about becoming more neighborly sinners.

Well I was there at one point, and really what I was....was a pharasee...religious.
And We all must strive toward discipline so we do not just hear the word but continue doing it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I thought I said that. Works do not effect salvation, but works do affect aspects of salvation.

Aspects of salvation?

No doubt this has to do with being saved, while no having fellowship because of sinning.

It's called being saved from afar.

If all a man wants is salvation from the just rewards of his sin and no more, I’m not sure how that can be satisfied. If along that line he wants to know the minimum effort needed to avoid hell, I’m not sure a”no works at all needed” theology will prove to have aided him in that goal.

 

[GodsGrace]

Works do .....because there are good works and bad works....
(Go away from me you workers of iniquity)

Also you don't "know" what you have until you walk in it. And we find the def of eternal life is to know the only true God and Jesus Christ who He has sent. There is a passage that says, I write these things so that you may know you have life, and that life is in the son.

Point being is the reason He saved us...to be a light by destroying the works of the Devil living by the Spirit.

But here is a scripture that should be thought aboutone can google it)
The will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes will have life and be raised on the last day.

Now what good would it be to have the son in you and not know? When eternal life is to know the father and the son?

What benifit will you have and how will that serve the Kingdom?

And if it is true that you believed Jesus did something for you so you can have heaven when you die, and you came alive by that teaching[were born again] and you never obeyed the Spirit how in the world would that meet God's purpose for why He saved you?

So it does really beg the question: have you received the Spirit when you believed?

Believed what? Believed Jesus did it all so you do nothing.

Or believed Jesus is the son of the living God with intent to following Him?

The problem is not knowing the full gospel...And listen to how disciples(learners-followers) are made: Go and make disciples (again dont quote me but look this up for I'm on my phone typing this).......How are they to go make disciples(learners, followers of Christ)? Teach them to do do do do
All that I command.....baptizing them(immersing as Willard says in the presence of the Holy trinity) in the name of the F,S, and Holy G and low I will be with with with you until the end of the age.

Anyway I'll stop here...because this I hope gives one truly seeking something to think about.




Salvation it's self- can mean the life of Christ.
As He is our deliverer, as the ark was Noah's deliverence.

The ark would not have saved no one from present circumstances if they did not get in it... (obey)

And there is no condemnation for those who walk not after the flesh but live by the Spirit.

The issue again is the cart before the horse...as mentioned earlier..

God saved us so that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world....

Saved us from what? Well Ephesian said we were dead in trespasses and Sin,
But made alive together with Christ...

Why? In my view so we are able to learn how to walk with God....to live in His presence (as I give them eternal life)

It is through this life, His life We are a light to the world..

The scriptures points out, if you love me you will keep my commands(teachings)and the father and I will come in and make our abode. with you, or sup with you. (don't quote me but look it up)

Great post Remmy.


I think you covered everything.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I was there at one point, and really what I was....was a pharasee...religious.
And We all must strive toward discipline so we do not just hear the word but continue doing it.

Amen.
What's the use of being a Christian if we don't obey Jesus?

 

[Hopeful]

Has the term "legalism" been defined?

 

[GodsGrace]

Has the term "legalism" been defined?

I don't think this had ever been asked.

 

[rogerg]

Therefore they were saved from being dead...

Oh my - try as I might, I just can't let that statement go by unrefuted. To be saved from spiritual death is to be made spiritually alive; being made spiritually alive IS the receiving of eternal life; the receiving of eternal life IS becoming saved.

You forgot these verses:
[Eph 2:6, 9 KJV] 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: ...
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[Rom 8:10 KJV] 10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Why is it that you work so hard to set at naught the offering of Christ and all that it brought?

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think this had ever been asked.

I think it is a good idea to see if we are all talking about the same thing.
As "legalism" is not in the bible, per se, it is clearly a man made doctrine.
One that denies the Christians the responsibility to obey God in every way we can find.
Our "laws" are...Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The "anti-legalists" base their claims on Paul's refutation of circumcision and dietary rules...among other things (temple worship, priesthood, tithing, feast keeping, for salvation.)
Those things are not necessary to keep ones name in the book of life.
Unfortunately, the anti-legalist let it spill over into denying repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and even enduring faithfully until ones last day.
They will insist that telling the truth instead of lying in order to be found guiltless on the last day is a work done for salvation.
Frankly, telling the truth is the result of conversion.
I find the entire concept of the man-made doctrine of legalism to be of the devil.

 

[Runmyramble]

Has the term "legalism" been defined?

My thought is...Legalism is about do this, do that...But not about trust Jesus to become the type of individual where the heart is being transformed to the image of Christ where we naturally will do what we are becoming.

Legalism does not look at the heart of the matter...

First make the tree good then it's fruit will be.

 

[jaybo]

My thought is...Legalism is about do this, do that...But not about trust Jesus to become the type of individual where the heart is being transformed to the image of Christ where we naturally will do what we are becoming.

Legalism does not look at the heart of the matter...

First make the tree good then it's fruit will be.

Well said!

 

[Hopeful]

My thought is...Legalism is about do this, do that...But not about trust Jesus to become the type of individual where the heart is being transformed to the image of Christ where we naturally will do what we are becoming.

Legalism does not look at the heart of the matter...

First make the tree good then it's fruit will be.

Do you feel Christians must tell the truth in order to be "in Christ"?
I liked your "fruit" simile.

 

[Runmyramble]

Do you feel Christians must tell the truth in order to be "in Christ"?
I liked your "fruit" simile.

What do you believe it means to be in Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it is a good idea to see if we are all talking about the same thing.
As "legalism" is not in the bible, per se, it is clearly a man made doctrine.
One that denies the Christians the responsibility to obey God in every way we can find.
Our "laws" are...Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.

The "anti-legalists" base their claims on Paul's refutation of circumcision and dietary rules...among other things (temple worship, priesthood, tithing, feast keeping, for salvation.)
Those things are not necessary to keep ones name in the book of life.
Unfortunately, the anti-legalist let it spill over into denying repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and even enduring faithfully until ones last day.
They will insist that telling the truth instead of lying in order to be found guiltless on the last day is a work done for salvation.
Frankly, telling the truth is the result of conversion.
I find the entire concept of the man-made doctrine of legalism to be of the devil.

I agree with you.

I think legalism means we're doing something because we have to, maybe thinking that keeping all the laws perfectly will somehow save us even if we have no faith.

Frankly, I like your explanation.

Jesus was legalistic, wasn't He?
He sure had a lot to say both about our behavior and our actions.

However He knew we had to love Him first, or we would be unable to obey/follow Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

What do you believe it means to be in Christ?

I used to teach kids our faith.

I'd make them write their name on a sheet of paper.

Then the paper would go in an envelope marked JESUS.

Then that would go in another envelope marked GOD.

Being in Jesus means living with Him, trusting our salvation to Him, and following Him,,,being a disciple.

If we follow Him, we also obey Him.

 

[jaybo]

I used to teach kids our faith.

I'd make them write their name on a sheet of paper.

Then the paper would go in an envelope marked JESUS.

Then that would go in another envelope marked GOD.

Being in Jesus means living with Him, trusting our salvation to Him, and following Him,,,being a disciple.

If we follow Him, we also obey Him.

How do you think we obey Him? I'm quite sure that it is by the Holy Spirit, whom He gave us to be our guide. It's not by a set of rules, a.k.a, the law.

 

[Runmyramble]

I used to teach kids our faith.

I'd make them write their name on a sheet of paper.

Then the paper would go in an envelope marked JESUS.

Then that would go in another envelope marked GOD.

Being in Jesus means living with Him, trusting our salvation to Him, and following Him,,,being a disciple.

If we follow Him, we also obey Him.

That was a creative ideal...and a great analogy! Love it

 

[Runmyramble]

Galatians 3:3

 

[Runmyramble]

Do you feel Christians must tell the truth in order to be "in Christ"?
I liked your "fruit" simile.

And you know that is a very good question...I believe we either faithing or unfaithing......our deeds are exposed in the light right? Why do you believe paul talks to the Corinthians the way he does?
They were still babes growing and learning, and we too learn how to relate, and trust God...Scripture says the righteous will live by faith.....Maybe Heaven in the sense of being around God will be like Hell (God turning His face) on any one who knows to do right and doesn't do it.........But here is a scripture we can meditate on, or study.
Judgement begins with_____?
The Spirit teaches us to remain in Christ...
But here's the passage I was speaking of:

2nd Corinthians 5:17

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

Looking at the latter "are become new"
That might mean as we grow in grace and in knowledge of Jesus Christ we will put off the old self....

So what do you think?
We should not seek to do wrong...but for me...I'm growing it looks in some or one area at a time.

Paul wants Christ to be formed in us...Mature not lacking anything...

 

[D-D-W]

Muslims say the same thing about the Koran. It's called scholarship pride.

Actually, in the koran (according to conservative Suni muslims), every sentence has 7 different meanings. That is why there can never be an authoritative translation of the Arabic text into english or any other language. IT is NOT scholarship pride; it is an intrinsic feature of Semitic languages.

I get that from the king's english, and no amount of the king's greek and hebrew horseman can change the simple understanding of it. They can however convey it into, only if it is twice or thrice, then it is of the devil.

And that sounds like english language pride to me. There was a reason that Paul listed "Teachers" (or "Pastor Teachers") in the main ministries of Ephesians 4. Not everyone can be a language scholar, so we NEED teachers to convey what the translations cannot.

 

[Hopeful]

What do you believe it means to be in Christ?

It means to actually be "in Christ".
We were baptized into Him, and we walk "in Him".