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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
WHY DO WE SIN?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Dorothy Mae
Member
"But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
"What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passionsa are at war within you?b 2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly,"
How come James did not say it is because of your sin nature?
"What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passionsa are at war within you?b 2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly,"
How come James did not say it is because of your sin nature?
Agreed. We are born with it.
Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. (ESV)
Job 14:1 “Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not.
Job 14:3 And do you open your eyes on such a one and bring me into judgment with you?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. (ESV)
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. (ESV)
Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him. (ESV)
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (ESV)
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (ESV)
Perhaps there could be nuances between saying we are born with a sin nature or born with a nature that has a propensity to sin, but either way, our nature is corrupted and is why everyone sins, even from a very young age. We cannot not sin; that, I believe, is the point the Bible makes. No one has to teach a child to take something from another child or to lie to cover up a wrongdoing. One of the main things of parenting is to "train up a child in the way he should go," and involves "the rod of discipline." Children have to be trained to do what is right but naturally do what is wrong and evil.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Dorothy Mae
Member
From adolescence it says, not childhood. Not a good scripture for inborn sin nature as it starts in teen years.
Lots of trouble in life, I agree. Job would know and he actually wasn’t of few days.
Not sure why you think this supports babies bring born sinful either.
The mother sinned when he was being conceived. The mother, not the fetus. Illegitimate children aren’t more sinful that others.
Babies don’t speak at all, let alone lies. Im always surprised when a thinking person actually sees this as “babies are evil.” They can’t walk anywhere to do evil and don’t talk. Next time some mother shows you her newborn I hope you’re honest enough to say, “oh what a wicked little thing already speaking lies.”
Bigger folly is in the adult. Folly isn’t sin. It’s foolishness.
Adults, mind you and it’s true. Little Children belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.
Adults, he’s addressing adults, not the newborn. Newborns cannot sin.
How did that become our nature? Simply by choosing sin. Choices become habits. Habits become character.
How come Job was so righteous in Gods eyes? How did that happen? Noah was deemed righteous too.
God told the Israelites that the law He gave them wasn’t too difficult for them. He doesn’t say to any man ever, “oh you cannot help stealing or murder or slander or injustice or mercilessness.” Our own conscience and God tell us we are guilty not victims.
Some don’t do this at all. Some children don’t lie. Now what?
I disagree. Some adults just want their children to do what they want, just or unjust. I’ve seen children expressing needs who were punished wrongly. There are a lot of poor parenting events whereby a child has NEEDS that are ignored.
Now children cannot control themselves. But the hungry child who is fussing is not doing so out of sin but need.
I am not saying children do not do what their parents forbade. But they don’t understand morals. Same as your dog who is upset and tears up a rug isn’t making a moral choice. They don’t understand moral right and wrong. They understand pleasing and not pleasing parents. This whole subject is beyond the scope of this medium.
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If you are born again from the seed of God, the being with the sinful nature has been killed and no longer has power over us. (Rom 6:6)
It starts in teen years? Just like that? Any observer of children knows otherwise.
Look at the context--nothing clean comes from something that is unclean. If parents are sinful, and they are, then so are their children.
This has nothing to do with the supposed sin of his mother when he was being conceived. He is talking about being born into sin, that his sin is a part of his nature from the moment of conception.
This sort of understanding is what happens when a verse or passage is forced to fit preconceived ideas. You have gone much too far in your assumptions here and twisted what Scripture is saying. I am in no way whatsoever am I or the Bible saying that babies are evil or are wicked and speak lies. The whole point of the verse is that humans are born with a sin nature. That is a plain and clear understanding of that verse, since David obviously knew that babies don't speak. Very young children do lie, though, as any observer of children knows.
Foolishness and folly are sin, or, in the very least always lead to sin (which is the propensity within everyone to sin), that is rather the point of its being mentioned throughout the entire book of Proverbs.
Pro 24:9 The devising of folly is sin, and the scoffer is an abomination to mankind. (ESV)
Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” (ESV)
Where does Jer 17:9 mention that it's only adults whose hearts are deceitful?
Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. (ESV)
Children will "rise against their parents and have them put to death." Does that really sound like Jesus thought children are as innocent as you seem to think they are? Of course, the younger a child is the more innocent they are in the sense that they are not aware of their sin and simply cannot understand it. But that doesn't mean children aren't born with a sinful nature.
Our nature is our nature; it is what we are born with as humans.
That has nothing to do with whether or not we are born with sinful natures or natures that have a propensity for sin.
I have yet to meet a child that doesn't lie or even hear of a child that doesn't. They all do it, without being taught how to do it, because it is in their human nature to do so.
Whether or not children understand morality has nothing to do with whether or not they are born with a sinful nature or a nature that has a propensity for sin. Even as adults, we can sin without realizing it until we later come to an understanding of what we have done and then realize it was sin.
The fact remains that children have to be taught to do right but never to do what is wrong, since that comes naturally. Whether they realize it's sin is irrelevant as to truthfulness of that fact.
We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.
Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. Their desire was to be like God and saw no wrong with their decision, but when the knowledge of good and evil was opened before them it was at that time they knew they disobeyed God and tried to hide their shame. The consequence of their disobedience was God casting them out of the beautiful garden and casting them out into a sinful world.
There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal (blood) sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final blood sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.
Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.
David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what they learn, Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Matthew 18:3 Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is saying here is that we need to be converted in all humility like that of a child as their example of humility as being humble and without pride.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? As a child we take on our physical attributes from our physical parents, but our spirit we get from God when he breathed live into us. God created us in His image and if we were already born with a sin nature that knew evil then that would mean Gods image would be evil since we are created in His image. But we know that is not the case, because in God there is no evil and we are born without evil in us, but are born into an evil world.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. If we were conceived and born with evil in us then how could we wax worse in evil and be deceived by others as we would already be evil, but again we are made in the pure image of God so how can evil be found in us before we were even born from the womb.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
How do we get an honest and good heart if we are not born with one as it is only by the evil that is in the world that will cause us to be deceived if we lust after it. Once again, train up a child in the way they should go and they will not turn from it. Parents are the ones who we get our attributes from as a child as we are influenced by what we see and hear around us.
Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. Their desire was to be like God and saw no wrong with their decision, but when the knowledge of good and evil was opened before them it was at that time they knew they disobeyed God and tried to hide their shame. The consequence of their disobedience was God casting them out of the beautiful garden and casting them out into a sinful world.
There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal (blood) sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final blood sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.
Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.
David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what they learn, Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
Matthew 18:3 Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is saying here is that we need to be converted in all humility like that of a child as their example of humility as being humble and without pride.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? As a child we take on our physical attributes from our physical parents, but our spirit we get from God when he breathed live into us. God created us in His image and if we were already born with a sin nature that knew evil then that would mean Gods image would be evil since we are created in His image. But we know that is not the case, because in God there is no evil and we are born without evil in us, but are born into an evil world.
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. If we were conceived and born with evil in us then how could we wax worse in evil and be deceived by others as we would already be evil, but again we are made in the pure image of God so how can evil be found in us before we were even born from the womb.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
How do we get an honest and good heart if we are not born with one as it is only by the evil that is in the world that will cause us to be deceived if we lust after it. Once again, train up a child in the way they should go and they will not turn from it. Parents are the ones who we get our attributes from as a child as we are influenced by what we see and hear around us.
Tenchi
Member
The Bible indicates we all have struggled against three "enemies of our soul" (and may still be struggling): The World, the Flesh and the devil. In Ephesians 2:1-3 the apostle Paul points to each of these "enemies," explaining that every lost person lives in bondage to them. Titus 3:3 offers a description of how that bondage manifests in a lost person's life:
(NASB)
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
Ugly stuff. But, the spiritually unregenerate person can only act in accord with their fleshly mind, which Paul told the believers at Rome was incorrigibly selfish and contrary to God's will.
Romans 8:5-8 (NASB)
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Until a person has been born-again, they can only operate in the flesh, genuine spiritual life found exclusively in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:9-15; Titus 3:5-8; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, etc.) Until the second birth occurs, those separated from God by the curse of the Fall have an uphill battle to fight - one that is waged apart from the inexhaustible power of their Almighty Maker. In spite of this, most lost folk, possessing a conscience, aren't as bad as they could be (Romans 2:13-15); and Scripture points to a number of people who walked with God, who honored Him with their lives, though they were not yet recipients of the second birth. The Roman centurion, Cornelius, is a good example (Acts 10:1-2), or Apollos, or the Ephesian believers, baptized by John the Baptist (Acts 18:24-26; Acts 19:1-6).
In any case, what makes the born-again person sin after being made a "new creature in Christ"? (2 Corinthians 5:17)
- Ignorance.
Many born-again people aren't properly discipled into the faith and so labor - sometimes for many decades - under a piecemeal understanding of their faith, totally ignorant of who they are in Christ and what God has accomplished for them already in him. "The me I see is the me I'll be." If I see myself as a spiritual pauper, still bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil, is it any surprise when I live like such a person? Though they are made "dead unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ," (Romans 6:1-11), though "old things are passed away, behold, all things are made new," (2 Corinthians 5:17), though they are "seated with Christ in heavenly places" (Ephesians 2:5-6), though they are redeemed, justified and sanctified in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30), many born-again believers don't know that they are and so live accordingly.
- Lack of faith.
"Without faith it is impossible to please God..." (Hebrews 11:6)
"The just shall live by faith." (Galatians 3:11)
"We walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7)
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief..." (Hebrews 3:12)
Most unregenerate people act according to what they feel, and see, and experience; these are the things that chiefly define what is real and true for the unsaved person. But God says to His children, "Believe and then see." Only when the child of God trusts what God has said, stepping out in faith in His promises to, and declarations about, them will they begin to experience those promises and truths. But, many times, born-again men face the power of, say, sexual lust and yield to it and think: I'm not "dead to sin"; I'm not freed from the power of Self and sin like the Bible says; I'm not seated with Christ in heavenly places; I'm bound in sin, mired in the overpowering impulses of my Flesh. I feel the force of my lust and I give in to it, so clearly I'm not who God says I am, I'm not united with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection and thus freed from the power of sin.
Like the Israelites at the border of the Promised Land, there is, for the born-again believer, daily a choice to believe what God has said, or to believe what they feel and experience. Refusing to "walk by faith," they turn from the promise of God, as the Israelites did at the edge of Canaan, and live in the wilderness of unbelief and sin instead.
- No real "second birth."
The modern Church is crowded with "tares," with "false brethren," as Paul called them, who share in the life and work of the Family of God, thinking they are part of the family, but having no actual membership in it (Matthew 13:24-30; Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4). These are they to whom Christ will say at the Final Judgment, "Depart from me. I never knew you." (Matthew 7:21-23) They said a prayer, perhaps, and give intellectual assent to the Gospel, but have no intention of yielding their lives to God's constant control, or shaping their living according to the commands, principles and wisdom of Scripture. What they want is "fire insurance," not a transformed life that is a "living sacrifice" to God. (Romans 12:1; Romans 8:29; Ephesians 2:10) These "tares" remain perennially bound in sin, not having actually been freed, through Christ, from the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You covered everything.
I agree, of course.
Especially what you said about children...they must be taught to be civil.
Our nature is corrupted, as you've stated, and we are not born saved.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Some Christians do believe this.
I'm not sure.
If our sinful nature has been eradicated,
then why do we still sin?
I'm not going to agree with your answer...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
P.S.
Would you agree with me that the flesh is also at times called our sinful nature?
Tenchi
Member
Yes, but not in so many words in Scripture. The Bible uses several terms/phrases to describe the "old man" of Romans 6:6, the person one is apart from God. The "old man" is carnal, that is, focused upon fleshly impulses and desires (Philippians 3:18-19); the fleshly-minded "old man" is "not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be," (Romans 8:7); the "old man" is temporally-oriented, largely ignoring eternity to come, investing in the here-and-now (see the Philippians quotation above); the "old man" is prideful, selfish, contentious and temperamental (Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 3:3). And so on. Paul wrote very dramatically about this "sin nature":
Romans 7:19-24
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
Does the "sin nature" retain the power to compel me, a born-again believer, to sin? Absolutely not. Romans 6 dissolves this idea completely (see also: Colossians 2:10-13; Colossians 3:1-3; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14). I am as free of the power of the "old man," of my sin nature, as I choose to be. Wonderful news, is it not?
In my opinion, we sin because we are still living in the original sinful "flesh". We have the power, by the Holy Spirit, to overcome the temptation to sin, but none of us is sinless.Some Christians do believe this.
I'm not sure.
If our sinful nature has been eradicated,
then why do we still sin?
I'm not going to agree with your answer...
Excellent replies.
Agreed
it takes lots of discipleship to keep the old man in check . paul wrote
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.…
our flesh loves sin
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.…
our flesh loves sin
Matthew 26:41 “Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
it is at that