WHY DO WE SIN?

[Jethro Bodine]

"Proper word"? Where did you get that idea? The NIV didn't confuse anything. My body is "flesh and bones". The dictionary definition of "flesh" is "the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human." The NIV and other modern translations are more correct when they do not use the word "flesh" for the sin nature.

How do you explain verses like these from the KJV? "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." and this "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? and "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." and "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." and "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." and many more.

You have noticed that the NIV does not call it 'sinful nature' anymore, but just says 'flesh' now, right?

Using the term 'sinful nature' confused the issue of this matter of sinning and not sinning. We are not in the control of sin anymore as believers because our fundamental mindset (not our natural minds-that belongs to the flesh) has been changed to that of desiring the things of the Spirit, and not the things of the flesh.

So, what we no longer have is the MINDSET of sin. If someone wants to insist on using the term 'sinful nature' then that it is more aptly applied to that of the old MINDSET of sin, not our flesh bodies. This is all explained in Romans 8. You either have the mind set on the things of the Spirit by virtue of having the Spirit, or you have the mind set on the flesh by virtue of not having the Spirit.

That's why the identifying mark of the believer is that they are no longer set on the things of the flesh, but rather set on the things of the Spirit. And so it is in that way that the believer no longer has a 'sin nature', if that's the term one insists on using. Which, as I pointed out, the NIV no longer uses.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It starts in teen years? Just like that? Any observer of children knows otherwise.

Sorry but I’m going with God’s opinion. He has observed a lot, btw

Look at the context--nothing clean comes from something that is unclean. If parents are sinful, and they are, then so are their children.

This has nothing to do with the supposed sin of his mother when he was being conceived. He is talking about being born into sin, that his sin is a part of his nature from the moment of conception.


This sort of understanding is what happens when a verse or passage is forced to fit preconceived ideas. You have gone much too far in your assumptions here and twisted what Scripture is saying. I am in no way whatsoever am I or the Bible saying that babies are evil or are wicked and speak lies. The whole point of the verse is that humans are born with a sin nature. That is a plain and clear understanding of that verse, since David obviously knew that babies don't speak. Very young children do lie, though, as any observer of children knows.


Foolishness and folly are sin, or, in the very least always lead to sin (which is the propensity within everyone to sin), that is rather the point of its being mentioned throughout the entire book of Proverbs.

Pro 24:9 The devising of folly is sin, and the scoffer is an abomination to mankind. (ESV)

Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” (ESV)


Where does Jer 17:9 mention that it's only adults whose hearts are deceitful?

Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. (ESV)

Children will "rise against their parents and have them put to death." Does that really sound like Jesus thought children are as innocent as you seem to think they are? Of course, the younger a child is the more innocent they are in the sense that they are not aware of their sin and simply cannot understand it. But that doesn't mean children aren't born with a sinful nature.


Our nature is our nature; it is what we are born with as humans.


That has nothing to do with whether or not we are born with sinful natures or natures that have a propensity for sin.


I have yet to meet a child that doesn't lie or even hear of a child that doesn't. They all do it, without being taught how to do it, because it is in their human nature to do so.


Whether or not children understand morality has nothing to do with whether or not they are born with a sinful nature or a nature that has a propensity for sin. Even as adults, we can sin without realizing it until we later come to an understanding of what we have done and then realize it was sin.

The fact remains that children have to be taught to do right but never to do what is wrong, since that comes naturally. Whether they realize it's sin is irrelevant as to truthfulness of that fact.

You covered everything.
I agree, of course.
Especially what you said about children...they must be taught to be civil.
Our nature is corrupted, as you've stated, and we are not born saved.

Comforting, isn’t it?

 

[Hopeful]

OK
I agree.

I mean, I'm not sure the old man was killed,
but he was severely wounded.
While on earth we will retain some portion of that old man.
On this thread, we've been calling it the sin nature.

That idea is quashed by Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And by Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
And by Col 2:11..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:"
And by 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
How can something that has been destroyed, crucified, circumcised, put off, and passed, away have any power over the faithful?
It can't.

 

[Hopeful]

OK
The old man remembering what his favorite sins are...
this could work I guess.

But, yes, there has to be a way of explaining why we still sin.

If you are still sinning, you are still the old man.
The way out of that situation is a real, true, permanent, repentance from sin; and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

 

[Tenchi]

I agree because you used the word COMPEL.
You said the sin nature does not retain the power to compel you to sin.
I usually say that we are not longer under the dominion of the sin nature...
I believe it's the same as what you're stating.
Some believe the sin nature has been eradicated...if so there would be no explanation
for when we do sin.

Has the carnal, Adamic nature been eradicated? At the very least, the born-again believer has been separated from (made "dead" to - Romans 6:1-11) the godless, Self-centered, fleshly-minded person they were prior to being saved. Does separation go far enough, though, in describing what Scripture says about the person made new in Christ? What does it mean that, for the born-again person, "old things are passed away, behold all things are become new"? (2 Corinthians 5:17) Does separation do full justice to what Paul intended to communicate in this verse? What did Paul mean when he wrote,

Colossians 3:1-5
1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

or,

Galatians 2:20
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

or,

Galatians 5:24 (NASB)
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

To be frank, I have come to no settled view on this particular point. I tend more and more to think that the "sin nature" in the believer is just the force of habit and not an active, compulsive, alternate nature that can overtake the unwary believer at any moment and subject the life of Christ (John 1:4; John 15:4-5; 1 John 5:11-12) to itself. This latter, spiritually-schizophrenic sort of conception of the born-again person seems to undermine the reality of the believer as "in Christ," made fundamentally new by union with him through the Holy Spirit, not merely added-onto by conversion, two natures now existing within the saved person rather than just one.

Paul's attitude in Romans 6 seems to me to be one of "What's the matter with you guys? Don't you know?" He didn't appear, in chapter 6, to think that there was a battle to be fought constantly with the still-alive "old man," but rather that living as though the "old man" were not dead was a strange and quite unnecessary thing. He didn't urge the believers at Rome to fight through to a condition where the "sin nature" was held in check, corralled by constant effort, and thus rendered impotent, but simply to trust the fact that they were already, by Christ's atoning work, totally free of the old unregenerate man (Romans 6:11).

Anyway, maybe it is that there are two contrary natures constantly at war with one another within the believer. As I grow older, however, and understand Scripture more deeply, this seems increasingly doubtful. Human beings are habit-forming creatures, powerfully and easily set into patterns and systems of thought and behavior. Just consider folks today with their cell phones. It's alarming how addicted they have become to these devices, powerfully habituated to using them - and being used by them. There are myriad other things with which people form habits - at times so powerfully they are described as addicted, compelled by the force of deeply-set habit, to think, desire and act in often very destructive ways. Is this what contends with the believer's new nature, pushing them back into sin? I can't say for certain. But it certainly seems possible to me.

 

[Hopeful]

"Proper word"? Where did you get that idea? The NIV didn't confuse anything. My body is "flesh and bones". The dictionary definition of "flesh" is "the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones of an animal or a human." The NIV and other modern translations are more correct when they do not use the word "flesh" for the sin nature.

How do you explain verses like these from the KJV? "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." and this "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? and "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." and "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." and "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." and many more.

Sometimes "flesh" means simply skin and bones.
Other times it means a sinfully, worldly oriented mind.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He didn't urge the believers at Rome to fight through to a condition where the "sin nature" was held in check, corralled by constant effort, and thus rendered impotent, but simply to trust the fact that they were already, by Christ's atoning work, totally free of the old unregenerate man (Romans 6:11).

That is correct.
Reckon yourself dead to sin because you are in fact dead to sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It starts in teen years? Just like that? Any observer of children knows otherwise.


Look at the context--nothing clean comes from something that is unclean. If parents are sinful, and they are, then so are their children.


This has nothing to do with the supposed sin of his mother when he was being conceived. He is talking about being born into sin, that his sin is a part of his nature from the moment of conception.


This sort of understanding is what happens when a verse or passage is forced to fit preconceived ideas. You have gone much too far in your assumptions here and twisted what Scripture is saying. I am in no way whatsoever am I or the Bible saying that babies are evil or are wicked and speak lies. The whole point of the verse is that humans are born with a sin nature. That is a plain and clear understanding of that verse, since David obviously knew that babies don't speak. Very young children do lie, though, as any observer of children knows.


Foolishness and folly are sin, or, in the very least always lead to sin (which is the propensity within everyone to sin), that is rather the point of its being mentioned throughout the entire book of Proverbs.

Pro 24:9 The devising of folly is sin, and the scoffer is an abomination to mankind. (ESV)

Job 42:8 Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.” (ESV)


Where does Jer 17:9 mention that it's only adults whose hearts are deceitful?

Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. (ESV)

Children will "rise against their parents and have them put to death." Does that really sound like Jesus thought children are as innocent as you seem to think they are? Of course, the younger a child is the more innocent they are in the sense that they are not aware of their sin and simply cannot understand it. But that doesn't mean children aren't born with a sinful nature.


Our nature is our nature; it is what we are born with as humans.


That has nothing to do with whether or not we are born with sinful natures or natures that have a propensity for sin.


I have yet to meet a child that doesn't lie or even hear of a child that doesn't. They all do it, without being taught how to do it, because it is in their human nature to do so.


Whether or not children understand morality has nothing to do with whether or not they are born with a sinful nature or a nature that has a propensity for sin. Even as adults, we can sin without realizing it until we later come to an understanding of what we have done and then realize it was sin.

The fact remains that children have to be taught to do right but never to do what is wrong, since that comes naturally. Whether they realize it's sin is irrelevant as to truthfulness of that fact.

Out of experience I know that those who hold the view that the sin they commit comes mainly from an inborn sin nature they inherited and cannot help nor be held responsible for will not willingly give up that excuse. One can understand why. They’d be left without excuse begging for mercy. Of course, they miss the grace that comes from begging God, “be merciful to me a sinner.” In their heart of hearts, their sin is not their fault…..very appealing to human pride.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

At the very least, the born-again believer has been separated from (made "dead" to - Romans 6:1-11) the godless, Self-centered, fleshly-minded person they were prior to being saved.

Exactly.
What has happened in the believer is they have a new mindset; the mindset of the Spirit. Deep in the center of their fundamental nature they long for and desire the things of the Spirit, whereas when they did not have the Spirit their fundamental nature was to long for and desire the things of the flesh. This change of 'nature' deep within a person is what has changed. Not changing. It has changed. It changed the moment the Holy Spirit came into us. Now we spend the rest of our earthly lives in the tent of the flesh conforming the flesh (which includes our thinking) to the change that has already fully occurred in the fundamental core of our being by the Spirit.

 

[Tenchi]

That is correct.
Reckon yourself dead to sin because you are in fact dead to sin.

Which Paul was writing to folks about whom this was true but who were living as though it wasn't. I note this because some believers want to hold that such a contradictory condition is impossible for the "true believer," that if a Christian is "dead to sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus," they should automatically, naturally leave off of sin entirely. But, as the believers in Rome (and Corinth, too - 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6 & 11) reveal, this wouldn't be how things worked - truly born again though they were - until they did as Paul directed them to do in chapter 6: "reckon it so" (vs. 11) and "present themselves as submitted bond-slaves to God" (vs. 13-22).

 

[Tenchi]

What has happened in the believer is they have a new mindset; the mindset of the Spirit.

Yes, in the Person of the Holy Spirit they possess the "mind of Christ," but the change in them is far deeper, far more fundamental, I think. The born-again person not only gains a new mind but a new heart, new spiritual life, being redeemed, fully justified and sanctified in Christ (Colossians 3:9-14; 1 John 5:11-12; Colossians 3:4; 1 Corinthians 1:19-20)

This change of 'nature' deep within a person is what has changed. Not changing. It has changed. It changed the moment the Holy Spirit came into us.

Amen. The change is a Person, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Holy Spirit. We are changed by his presence in us; he is our spiritual life. (Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5, etc.)

Now we spend the rest of our earthly lives in the tent of the flesh conforming the flesh (which includes our thinking) to the change that has already fully occurred in the fundamental core of our being by the Spirit.

I would put it this way: Now we spend the rest of our earthly lives in the "tent" of the flesh being conformed by the Spirit (Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16; etc.) to the truth of who he has made us to be at the core of who we are as "new creatures in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17), by faith, receiving, remaining in, and reflecting the transforming work of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Out of experience I know that those who hold the view that the sin they commit comes mainly from an inborn sin nature they inherited and cannot help nor be held responsible for will not willingly give up that excuse.

Without the Spirit everybody has the mindset of the flesh. Everybody is born that way. Their minds are, by nature, set on the things of the flesh and they invariably start to choose to sin and becomes slaves to sin, growing up into the image of their father, Adam.

It isn't until a person receives the Holy Spirit in salvation that they then have the mindset of the Spirit. They are 'born' that way. Their minds are now, by nature, set on the things of the Spirit and they invariably start to choose to not sin and become slaves to righteousness, growing up into the image of their heavenly Father.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, in the Person of the Holy Spirit they possess the "mind of Christ," but the change in them is far deeper, far more fundamental, I think.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The mindset that Paul is talking about isn't the functioning of our flesh and blood brains and our mental functions. The mindset he is talking about is the fundamental nature of our being deep within us. The spiritual man.

See, I think the NIV translators got it wrong by assigning the matter of a sin 'nature' to the flesh, when in the context of Romans 8 it is clear that the nature that causes us to sin is who we are, by nature, fundamentally, deep within our being. So, if there is such a thing as a 'sin nature', it is not the flesh. It is the mindset deep within the one who does not have the Spirit—a mindset of sin. In Christ, that mindset, that nature is changed to a new mindset, a new nature of that of the Spirit. And that change is complete and total. The old nature is GONE in Christ. Not subdued. GONE! But the flesh does remain to war against our new nature, our new mindset. But it's a battle that is already won by virtue of the fact that there is no longer the weakness of a mindset of sin within us that must cave into the corrupt desires of the flesh.

 

[Tenchi]

See, I think the NIV translators got it wrong by assigning the matter of the sin 'nature' to the flesh, when in the context of Romans 8 the nature that causes us to sin is who we are, by nature, fundamentally, deep within our being.

You're right: The whole of the New Testament teaching on the "sin nature" doesn't allow for the locating of sin solely in the physical flesh of our bodies. Fleshly impulses are merely a provocation to a disposition of mind and heart that is eager to satisfy those impulses in a selfish, illegitimate, even destructive way.

 

[Hopeful]

Which Paul was writing to folks about whom this was true but who were living as though it wasn't. I note this because some believers want to hold that such a contradictory condition is impossible for the "true believer," that if a Christian is "dead to sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus," they should automatically, naturally leave off of sin entirely. But, as the believers in Rome (and Corinth, too - 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6 & 11) reveal, this wouldn't be how things worked - truly born again though they were - until they did as Paul directed them to do in chapter 6: "reckon it so" (vs. 11) and "present themselves as submitted bond-slaves to God" (vs. 13-22).

Do you really think they were born again, if the old man was still "calling the shots"?
I don't.

 

[Free]

Sorry but I’m going with God’s opinion. He has observed a lot, btw

You're going with a single verse, which means it isn't God's opinion you're going with.

Out of experience I know that those who hold the view that the sin they commit comes mainly from an inborn sin nature they inherited and cannot help nor be held responsible for will not willingly give up that excuse. One can understand why. They’d be left without excuse begging for mercy. Of course, they miss the grace that comes from begging God, “be merciful to me a sinner.” In their heart of hearts, their sin is not their fault…..very appealing to human pride.

If anyone believes that since we are born with a nature that is prone to sin, that it cannot be helped and they are not responsible, is in error. But their error in belief certainly doesn't mean that we aren't born with a sinful nature. We are all born with a sinful nature, or propensity for sin, but God also says we are culpable and without excuse.

 

[Tenchi]

Do you really think they were born again, if the old man was still "calling the shots"?
I don't.

Well, consider Paul's words to the Corinthian Christians. He called them "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1) and criticized their "jealousy and strife," but in the same chapter he referred to these carnal, contentious people as "God's field and building" (1 Corinthians 3:9), "temple of God," (1 Corinthians 3:16), and as those "who belong to Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:23). Though Paul in his first letter to the Corinthian believers chastised them very sharply for their grossly sinful conduct (1 Corinthians 5; 6:1-11; 11:17-22, etc.), he constantly affirmed that they were nonetheless "brethren" (1 Corinthians 4:6), that theyd been washed, sanctified and justified in Christ (1 Corinthians 6:11), that they were members of Christ (1 Corinthians 6:15) and temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20), and so on. Clearly, Paul did not think that being "new creatures in Christ" meant the Corinthian believers would not sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well we seem to have 3 enemies here on earth. Our self-will, and the enemy, and lastly, the evil of the world.

Agreed.

My understanding is that our DNA contains a complete record of everything in us and everyone else in our blood line all the way back to, Well, Abraham probably. And scripture tells us that the iniquity of the fathers will be visited upon the children to the 3rd or 4th generation. This is to say that, suppose that my great great grandma who I never met or even know her name, was a wich or something like that. Her sins of Sorcery would be as a curse to the bloodline and perhaps be causing problems for me in present. Poltergeist or whatever.
Maybe violent people are John Dillingers cousin and they spread mayhem in their like so that guy is prone to being violent. I don't think we can call it a genetic trigger, but it is in the DNA and will affect us.

Yes, I also understand that passage to be the way you explain it.
The OT and NT tells us that we are each responsible for our own sins,
so the above has to be correct.

This brings us back to the Lord's admonishment to overcome our flesh, so these things can be dealt with. But not a lot of people realize the reality of the situation, or the gravity of it! Use that Binding Prayer! Scripture says whatever is bound on earth is bound in Heaven. So these types of triggers to sin can be overcome and their curse that comes with it. Cast these things out in Jesus name. That was most of Jesus's ministry on earth, casting out demons.

Agreed again.
One of my problems with the CC is that this is not taught to the general congregation. Those that go to bible study know this, but most of the others who just sit at Mass on Sunday are not made aware of the spiritual realm around us.
It's the idea of arming ourselves with the full armor of God.

Ephesians 6:10-17
10A final word: Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil.
12For wed are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.
14Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness.
15For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared.e
16In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil.
17Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The proper word for it is the 'flesh'. The NIV kind of confused things by introducing the term 'sin nature' into the Christian vocabulary. What we do not have anymore as Spirit-sealed believers is the mindset of sin. That is gone, gone, gone for the believer.

Hey Jethro,
We sure did debate this a bit back a few years ago.
I see now why we couldn't agree, and I kept seeing a tiny nuance and knew we were close in agreement.
You said the NIV now calls it the sin nature.
You say it should be called the flesh.

Whatever the right term is, can you agree that we're born with the tendency toward sin and not toward God,
and then at our second and spiritual birth we tend to want to please God and have dominion over whatever it is that makes us sin?

 

[Edward]

(Many people)...are not made aware of the spiritual realm around us.
It's the idea of arming ourselves with the full armor of God.

Ephesians 6:10-17
10A final word: Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11Put on all of God’s armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies of the devil.
12For wed are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, put on every piece of God’s armor so you will be able to resist the enemy in the time of evil. Then after the battle you will still be standing firm.
14Stand your ground, putting on the belt of truth and the body armor of God’s righteousness.
15For shoes, put on the peace that comes from the Good News so that you will be fully prepared.e
16In addition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrows of the devil.
17Put on salvation as your helmet, and take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

The armor of God would be a great thread because it goes deep! I think most people don't really believe that we participate in the spiritual war. Go to church on sunday and try to live good. The spiritual war is not a spectator sport, we are the boots on the ground here in the name of the Lord! So being properly suited up in the armor of God is very essential for us.

It's true we are only the conduit for the Lord and he works through us for we can do nothing of ourselves. But God still needs for the conduit to walk over there and speak to someone so that the Kingdom of God can flow. That means listen!

The armor of God is so important that we're lucky that Constantine did not edit that part out!