WHY DO WE SIN?

[Tenchi]

Do you really think the wolves are the ones who profess, command, obedience to God?

It's what the Pharisees did. And Jesus called them "white-washed tombs full of corpses," "sons of hell," "hypocrites," and "the brood of vipers."

 

[Hopeful]

It's what the Pharisees did. And Jesus called them "white-washed tombs full of corpses," "sons of hell," "hypocrites," and "the brood of vipers."

And why did He call them that?
Because they did not live by what they taught.
In the NT, though, we can.
We have been given the means to crucify the "flesh" with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Thanks be to God !

 

[gordon777]

The flesh is crucified, if we believe that Christ was crucified for our flesh, which gave us only death.

We believe only in the circumcision of Christ, which is the faith of the operation of God, for Jesus Christ to die and be risen from the dead, to forgive us all trespasses, which were written against us, which before Christ took part in the flesh and blood, death was ruling, and we were not delivered and were subject to bondage of it, through all our lifetime fearing death, until Christ destroyed the devil having the power of death, destroyed by Christ showing us the power of an endless life......




Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 

[D-D-W]

This is true.
Animals respond by instinct,
not by moral values.

That is what we can observe. But is there any scripture that says that? Do we really know what goes on in a dog or cat's brain?

 

[GodsGrace]

That is what we can observe. But is there any scripture that says that? Do we really know what goes on in a dog or cat's brain?

What?
The bible was written for humans, not for animals.

We know what goes on with animals because of science.
Many studies have been done.
A tiger kills a zebra for food.
He doesn't stop to think about the morality of the act.

 

[GodsGrace]

And why did He call them that?
Because they did not live by what they taught.
In the NT, though, we can.
We have been given the means to crucify the "flesh" with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Thanks be to God !

You're right.
Jesus said to do what the pharisees said,
not what they did.

Matthew 23:3
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
2“The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses.
3So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach. 4They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.

I'd also like to say that we were required to follow the Laws of God,
both in the OT and in the NT,
however, in the NT we are now empowered by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit
to be more aware of sins and to stop sinning as much as possible by His presence.

 

[D-D-W]

What?
The bible was written for humans, not for animals.

Indeed.

We know what goes on with animals because of science.
Many studies have been done.

True. But the tests and studies only go so far.

A tiger kills a zebra for food.
He doesn't stop to think about the morality of the act.

That we cannot know for sure, since there is no test for that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed.

True. But the tests and studies only go so far.

That we cannot know for sure, since there is no test for that.

God made us.
He put a moral code into our DNA.
If He also did this for animals, it means animals have a spirit and are going to heaven or hell.
However, I remind you that Adam named all the animals,
and when he fell, he broke his rapport with animals.
Animals were used for sacrifice, beginning in the Garden,
and the bible story does not mention animals because it was not written for animals.

 

[D-D-W]

God made us.
He put a moral code into our DNA.
If He also did this for animals, it means animals have a spirit and are going to heaven or hell.
However, I remind you that Adam named all the animals,
and when he fell, he broke his rapport with animals.
Animals were used for sacrifice, beginning in the Garden,
and the bible story does not mention animals because it was not written for animals.

Wow. I see an awful lot of extra biblical assumption in that post. "If ... it means ...." without chapter and verse to back it up.

Please do not do that.

 

[gordon777]

I'd also like to say that we were required to follow the Laws of God,
both in the OT and in the NT,
however, in the NT we are now empowered by the dwelling of the Holy Spirit
to be more aware of sins and to stop sinning as much as possible by His presence.

No scripture says to stop sinning as much as possible, but that all is possible, and that we are to have peace and holiness with all men or we never will see the Lord..


Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

 

[stovebolts]

This has nothing to do with the supposed sin of his mother when he was being conceived. He is talking about being born into sin, that his sin is a part of his nature from the moment of conception.

In regard to Psalm 51, I am going to have to disagree with you.

David wrote Psalm 51, 69 and 139. 69 and 51 are related. 139 speaks to a different event.

Psalms 139 ESV
13 For you (P)formed my inward parts;
you (Q)knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
(R)Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 (S)My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in (T)the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your (U)book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

We don’t want to put David against himself so it is up to us to discern the overall context of each Psalm.

We understand that David is lamenting in Psalm 51 over the death of his child and it is worthy to note that he did not want that child and even had a righteous man killed trying to cover up his sin. I can’t emphasis enough that this child was received by David in fear and deception and his response to her pregnancy was wrought in shame and sin.

Psalm 69 gives us a view of David growing up. He was rejected by his own Father, family and community. Like his child from Bathsheba, his birth was also rejected by his father. It was not a season of joy for his father but one of scandle, fear, deception and tarnishment.

The back story in all three psalms are very important and should be carefully studied without a doctrinal agenda. They should be read and understood within the context they were written.

 

[GodsGrace]

No scripture says to stop sinning as much as possible, but that all is possible, and that we are to have peace and holiness with all men or we never will see the Lord..


Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Gordon,
Do you believe in sinless perfection?
If you don't, then you agree with me.

 

[GodsGrace]

In regard to Psalm 51, I am going to have to disagree with you.

David wrote Psalm 51, 69 and 139. 69 and 51 are related. 139 speaks to a different event.

Psalms 139 ESV
13 For you (P)formed my inward parts;
you (Q)knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
(R)Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 (S)My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in (T)the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your (U)book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

We don’t want to put David against himself so it is up to us to discern the overall context of each Psalm.

We understand that David is lamenting in Psalm 51 over the death of his child and it is worthy to note that he did not want that child and even had a righteous man killed trying to cover up his sin. I can’t emphasis enough that this child was received by David in fear and deception and his response to her pregnancy was wrought in shame and sin.

Psalm 69 gives us a view of David growing up. He was rejected by his own Father, family and community. Like his child from Bathsheba, his birth was also rejected by his father. It was not a season of joy for his father but one of scandle, fear, deception and tarnishment.

The back story in all three psalms are very important and should be carefully studied without a doctrinal agenda. They should be read and understood within the context they were written.

I think Psalm 51 is taken out of context all the time.
As I remember David was lamenting about his family, as you've stated,
but I seem to remember that there was something going on with his mother when he was concieved.

In any case, it definitely does not mean that he was born sinful...
no one can be born sinful but only with a nature that tends toward sin.
A newborn baby has committed no sin.

 

[stovebolts]

but I seem to remember that there was something going on with his mother when he was concieved.

Yes, according to Jewish history, Jesse (Davids Father) was having an identity crises because of the marriage between his Grandfather Boaz and his Grandmother Ruth because Ruth was a Moabite and the law of Moses forbid marrying a Moabite and allowing them into the assembly. As a result, Jesse questioned the legitimacy of his children. Wanting a legitimate child, he arranges to sleep with his Canaanite servant as there was no prohibition of a Moabite marrying a Canaanite.

According to Jewish history, the servant tells Jesses wife Nitzevet and on the night Jesse was to sleep with his servant, she changes place with Nitzvet and she becomes pregnant.

When she is discovered to be pregnant, it is assumed she had an affair and the child (David) is illegitimate.

Psalm 69 is couched in with story.

Bottom line, David was conceived in an act of deceit and her pregnancy was not well received by Jesse, Davids siblings and the community.

David finds himself in a similar situation with the child of Bathsheba. The child is an illegitimate child and will be raised with a social stigma that David himself experienced.

 

[Free]

In regard to Psalm 51, I am going to have to disagree with you.

David wrote Psalm 51, 69 and 139. 69 and 51 are related. 139 speaks to a different event.

Psalms 139 ESV
13 For you (P)formed my inward parts;
you (Q)knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
(R)Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 (S)My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in (T)the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your (U)book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.

We don’t want to put David against himself so it is up to us to discern the overall context of each Psalm.

We understand that David is lamenting in Psalm 51 over the death of his child and it is worthy to note that he did not want that child and even had a righteous man killed trying to cover up his sin. I can’t emphasis enough that this child was received by David in fear and deception and his response to her pregnancy was wrought in shame and sin.

Psalm 69 gives us a view of David growing up. He was rejected by his own Father, family and community. Like his child from Bathsheba, his birth was also rejected by his father. It was not a season of joy for his father but one of scandle, fear, deception and tarnishment.

The back story in all three psalms are very important and should be carefully studied without a doctrinal agenda. They should be read and understood within the context they were written.

The thing is, we still have to take each Psalm in its context. It is very curious that you say in Psalm 51 that David is "lamenting . . . over the death of his child," when it literally has the title "A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba." Psalm 69 is about wrong done to David by his numerous enemies. That is a very different context, in which his family (verse 8) are either just a few of many foes (verse 4), or they have disowned him, perhaps due to what his enemies are saying about him.

It seems pretty clear then, that in Psalm 51 David is lamenting his sin with Bathsheba and likely the murder of her husband as well. In verse 1 he asks God to have mercy on him, to "blot out my transgressions." In verse 2 he asks for washing and cleansing from iniquity and sin. In verse 3, he acknowledges his transgressions and sin, that they are "ever before me." Then, in verse 4, he says that "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight."

So, the first four verses are clearly about David lamenting his sin against God. It would then be very strange to suddenly claim that he was "brought forth" from an adulterous relationship his mother had. That doesn't seem to fit the context at all. However, thinking about it now, I could be wrong. Perhaps it is about his mother having an adulterous relationship (although I don't think that is mentioned anywhere in Scripture) in which he was conceived, but then the resulting understanding would still be the same--he was born in original sin due to the sin of his mother.

This would also go back to the passage I posted from Job:

Job 14:1 “Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not.
Job 14:3 And do you open your eyes on such a one and bring me into judgment with you?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. (ESV)

The whole point is that he is going back to the root cause of his sin with Bathsheba, and in doing so, he goes first to his birth and then when he was conceived. This very strongly supports the idea of original sin, that we are born with a propensity for sin, regardless of whether or not there was actual sin involved in conception.

 

[gordon777]

Gordon,
Do you believe in sinless perfection?
If you don't, then you agree with me.

Jesus Christ is the way to believe in sinless perfection.

 

[gordon777]

As you guys think you should be discussing Psalm 51, as if it relates to king David at all, it does not.

The throne of David is passed onto Christ. Christ sits upon the throne of David, to order and establish it.

Psalm 51, as all others scriptures in all of the entire bible, speak of salvation. Then transgressors are taught, then upon the throne of David ( Christ) sings of the Fathers righteousness. ( forgiveness from blood guiltiness.)

Zion is redeemed with this judgement, her converts ( born again of the Holy Ghost to enter the Kingdom of God) with righteousness. This is also the destruction of the sinners, who think they control this world, when they speak of sin freely, and are they who forsake the Lord.....2 Peter 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Give the king ( David) Gods judgements, and righteousness to the kings son ( Christ.) and He ( Christ.) shall judge the people with righteousness, thy poor with judgement......





Isaiah 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 33:5 The Lord is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness.
6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the Lord is his treasure.

Psalm 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Psalm 72:1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

 

[gordon777]

Now to answer again, why do we sin, as your thread title.


The answer is, because many are called and few are chosen, and on top of that many deceivers are entered into the world, and the beast deceiving the whole world means, their answer is we sin, because we cant help it, and its perfectly fine, and is even the right way, as to not commit sin is blasphemy to these guys, and is heresy.


If all of this was not the case, we would not be living in a world that lies in wickedness, we would not have a devil inside of all of his "righteous" ministers, we would not have the trial of our faith, to have to answer against all those who speak hard things against the living God, who will be repayed in judgement, and then for the few, little bits of wheat, little sheep who cant hear the murderers, even though outnumbered, overcome them, for greater is He that is in us, than they who are in the world.



2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.



Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[stovebolts]

The thing is, we still have to take each Psalm in its context.

Agreed

It is very curious that you say in Psalm 51 that David is "lamenting . . . over the death of his child," when it literally has the title "A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba."

This is in reference to 2 Samuel 12 where Nathan also tells David his child will die. I emphasized David lamenting over this but I was not trying to say David was exclusively lamenting over the loss of his child. In this account, David does lament in hopes his child will survive.

So, the first four verses are clearly about David lamenting his sin against God. It would then be very strange to suddenly claim that he was "brought forth" from an adulterous relationship his mother had. That doesn't seem to fit the context at all.

Yes, his words of lament are directed to God but I don’t think David’s lament is only to God in the same way I don’t think David was only lamenting the loss of his child.
In the same way, psalm 51 is not an isolated account of what David is experiencing. When we are in times of heavy sorrow, we recount earlier similar events which occurred to us. It is natural for a flood of emotion to overtake us and pictures of our past to somewhat randomly come on and out of our view.

This is why I bring in Psalm 69. It was another set of events in David’s life where he was expressing emotional trials and he recounts his childhood. Again, Jewish history tells us what isn’t written in the Bible in regard to why David was rejected by his immediate family and viewed as an outcast and enemy by many in the community. In short, they believed him to be an illegitimate child. As a side note, people spoke of Jesus in a similar way when they said, “ what good can come out of Nazareth” because they did not know he was actually from Bethlehem. But anyway, that’s not my point. Now, I do understand that some will reject Jewish history and I don’t have much to say about that. But for me, I embrace what is common, undisputed knowledge and universally accepted within the Jewish history books in regard to David even if it’s not in the Bible.

Perhaps it is about his mother having an adulterous relationship (although I don't think that is mentioned anywhere in Scripture)

See above.
To recap, She slept with her husband but he thought he was sleeping with his servant. When she became pregnant, it was thought she had an affair and the child was illegitimate. This is why David’s brothers treated him so badly and why he was alone shepherding. Not even Jacob allowed his children to shepherd alone. Shepherding was dangerous which is why Jacob believed Joseph was attacked by a wild animal and killed. It is also why David was not present when Samuel asked for Jesses children and later had to send for David.

Coming full circle, these are just a few of the things I personally think may have been going on in David’s head when he wrote both Psalms 69 and 51.

It is evident in 2 Samuel 12 that David does not want his child to die. He respects life after his own flesh. But we also see what he did when he found out Bathsheba was pregnant and even had her husband killed trying to cover it up. I’m sure without Uriah around, the community would have thought the child was his and not David’s. But Nathan calls him out. How would this child be treated since it was an illegitimate pregnancy? Would David’s child experience the same social stigma he himself experienced? You see, David was conceived in sin. His Father did not want another child with his mother because Ruth was a Moabite and all of his children’s legitimacy within the assembly was being questioned because the law of Moses forbid a Moabite into the assembly. You see, it wasn’t well known that this only applied to men, not women so in actuality, Ruth was allowed into the assembly. But there was social stigma against Ruth which effected Jesse. He wanted one of his children to be free of this stigma so he sleeps with who he thinks is his Canaanite servant and if she conceived and gives birth to a child, that child will be stigma free. But instead, he gets what he thinks is an illegitimate child from his wife. Ouch!

The whole story of David’s conception is steeped in sin. It’s not how God wants a child to be brought into this world. Sexual relations of David’s conception was done in deception. Thus, David, in te same manner as his child with Bathsheba was conceived in sin.

he was born in original sin due to the sin of his mother.

I need to be honest, I don’t ascribe to the doctrine of Original Sin. I believe it to be a destructive heresy from Augustine which later Calvin develops his doctrine of Total Depravity. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine of Original sin teaches that the eternal fate of an in baptized child is unknown and the unofficial doctrine of limbo fills that gap, but still leaves the eternal state of the child unknown.
Calvin on the other hand leans on election. Those infants that are not of the elect are sent to eternal damnation.

Having buried two of my children, this subject is near to me and I have experienced the pain that the doctrine of Original sin causes. Nobody should grapple with the misery of the idea their child is in eternal torment.

Which brings me to Psalm 139. We are beautifully and wonderfully made…. David does not contemplate the eternal state of his illegitimate child. He knows that he will be with him in the world to come. His cold did not inherit his sin, just like we don’t inherit the sin of Adam.

 

[gordon777]

All scripture speaks of Christ, if we think we have belief in God, and have eternal life, we wont have that, unless we can understand and acknowledge that all scriptures speak of Christ, of His coming to earth to die and rise aghain for our sins, nobody else has anything worth considering at all, as all else is death and cannot bring life..



John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.




To receive the end of our faith, the salvation of our souls, is not by discussing about David or anyone else is it.

It is instead, knowing those prophets ( David etc) who prophesied all their words about Christ, by the Spirit of Christ in them ( is it not sense to know that when the Spirit of Christ is in someone, all they can be speaking of is Jesus Christ, and not their own lives at all ?) to show beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and then His glory.

So through all that, we know no scriptures are of private interpretation, but they all had spoken as they were moved by God, which is impossible to be lamenting over their own lives but can only be for the coming life of Christ in the world.





1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.




Sin, is when we cannot acknowledge the truth. Which is given only by Gods Spirit. ( which the prophets also had, to speak only of Christ, not of themselves.) and they profess God but deny Him in works ( sin of unbelief.)




2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;


Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.