Works save? Rubbish

[Heidi]

But if you 'don't want to be' there then you're not the Lord's sheep.

Remember God gives us His desires - as christians we desire to be where God wants us. If one was to choose to walk away becasue they don't desire to be there anymore - then I question if they were ever there to begin with.

It's so refreshing to read posts from a true believer who has faith in Christ's words! God bless you, Merry. :angel:

 

[Remember]

Von I know you're not talking about yourself.

And yes I know people who 'seemed' to know the Lord and then turn away. But the bible tells us that when they go away they make manifest that they were never one of them to begin with.

I'm sorry, Merry. But I would have to disagree with your statement in light of what the Bible says:

2 Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

And the Proverb which verifies this situation: Prov 26:11

11 As a dog returneth to his vomit , so a fool returneth to his folly.


That first bold in V 20 tells us that "they" being spoken of became Christians and escaped from sin. The remainder states that it is worse to turn from that knowledge (which means much more than just knowing of the mind) then not to have known at all. Those that turn away :

We can also go back to Simon the sorcerer, covering the same type of situation. After he had become "in Christ", his heart was wrong in his desires and was promptly told so and told to repent and pray for forgiveness so as not to be, again, lost. He then asked for the brothers to pray for him, which he needed.

I know of no scripture that states that someone who turns away was not "in Christ" to begin with. These verses of 2 Peter are speaking of Christians. If you would, I would like to see such a scripture. It would be appreciated.

 

[Heidi]

Those who doubt their salvation here focus only on scripture that can produce fear in those who are not saved. But they completely ignore scripture that talks about faith and love.

Jesus said we have one teacher and that is the Christ. He means that we cannot interpret thte bible correctly without the Holy Spirit inside of us. Without the Holy Spirit we will see the bible as Jesus says; "their teachings are but rules taught by men."

Sorry but the bible is not a rule book. It is the revelation of God's will for his people. Any interpretation that contradicts other scripture is a false one. You cannot both agree with Jesus that "No one can snatch them out of my hand" and at the same time say that we can be snatched out of his hand. Therefore, the passages you quoted can only mean that it definitely would be worse if someone hears the word and ignores it! The author is right. That would be hell. And he can then only be speaking to those who as Jesus says; "Hear the word and the devil comes and snatches it away." Their faith had not root. The root is the Holy Spirit because it is the only power stronger than the devil who can keep us from the evil one.

 

[Remember]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

 

[Heidi]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do. Is that correct?

You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not? Sorry, but that's blasphemy.

 

[Remember]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

Heidi wrote:

Those who doubt their salvation here focus only on scripture that can produce fear in those who are not saved. But they completely ignore scripture that talks about faith and love.

I have not doubt, whatsoever, that Jesus and God will keep every promise they've told us. One needs to know the whole word, the knowledge of the wonderful gifts to be as well as what unbelievers are to expect. (Very good reasons to help as many to Christ as possible, especially those we personally love.) God doesn't pull any punches. He has laid everything out, clear as a sunny day. :D

Thank you, God

Sorry but the bible is not a rule book.

:shocked!: The word of God is not the rule book? Huh, guess this is wrong then:

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof , for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As I said above, no one ever snatches anyone out of His hand. But God does give everyone the choice to walk away, if they so choose. Proverbs calls that person a fool, and rightfully so.

 

[Remember]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do. Is that correct?

You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not? Sorry, but that's blasphemy.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do.

I have said no such thing. And I have no idea how you got that from what I have posted of God's word.

You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not?

Again, I have said no such thing.

What I do find incredible is all that some seem to read that isn't there. Very incredible.

 

[Heidi]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do. Is that correct?

You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not? Sorry, but that's blasphemy.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do.

I have said no such thing. And I have no idea how you got that from what I have posted of God's word.


[quote:cc0b0]You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not?

Again, I have said no such thing.

What I do find incredible is all that some seem to read that isn't there. Very incredible.[/quote:cc0b0]

Of course you're saying that if one chooses to walk away to earthly things that you are stornger than the Holy Spirit! Who do you think enables you to believe? The tooth fairy? Your sinful nature? Your own intelligence and wisdom? Sorry, but Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved-through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is the gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast."

Sorry, but you do not own the Holy Spirit. He owns you. And to say otherwise is to say that you are more powerful than he is. which is of course, untrue. "You have been bought for a price." "the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace." Those controlled by the Spirit cannot walk away from God for "A man is a slave to whatever masters him." And that is why Jesus says; "No one can snatch them out of my hand."

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Those who doubt their salvation here focus only on scripture that can produce fear in those who are not saved. But they completely ignore scripture that talks about faith and love.

I don't know about that, but you've just ignored a scripture that speaks about falling away.

Jesus said we have one teacher and that is the Christ. He means that we cannot interpret thte bible correctly without the Holy Spirit inside of us. Without the Holy Spirit we will see the bible as Jesus says; "their teachings are but rules taught by men."

You say, in the process of arguing for your interpretation and against the interpretation of others. sigh...

Sorry but the bible is not a rule book. It is the revelation of God's will for his people.

???? God's will= God's rule over our lives. It's not a book of rules, it's a book that tells us that God rules, and tells us to obey His rules.

Matthew 28:20
Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Any interpretation that contradicts other scripture is a false one. You cannot both agree with Jesus that "No one can snatch them out of my hand" and at the same time say that we can be snatched out of his hand.

Here's the actual scripture:

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them away from me

No one will snatch them away from Christ. It says nothing about the ability of each to simply walk away.

Therefore, the passages you quoted can only mean that it definitely would be worse if someone hears the word and ignores it! The author is right. That would be hell. And he can then only be speaking to those who as Jesus says; "Hear the word and the devil comes and snatches it away." Their faith had not root. The root is the Holy Spirit because it is the only power stronger than the devil who can keep us from the evil one.

You are incorrect.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

The Devil snatches away seed (matt 13:4, 19)
The rootless plant and that which is choked by the cares of the world are not snatched away by Satan, but scorched and choked by those things that entangle: persecutions, cares, difficulties (matt 13:20-22)

 

[Heidi]

I knew i shouldn't have read your post, Orthodox. But since I did, I will respond.

Trying to get people to doubt their salvation is not a fruit of the Spirit. It is from the devil. It is not faith, but fear and doubt. Until you have faith, you will misinterpret scripture and try to get others to live in fear and doubt also. That's also what the devil tries to do. Sorry, that won't work with me. I believe Jesus when he says "No one can snatch them out of my hand." You obviously do not. So you and I are coming from opposite places and will never agree.

 

[Remember]

Addition:

No one "took" them, God does not force anyone either way. They choose to walk away for earthly things instead of living for heavenly things.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do. Is that correct?

You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not? Sorry, but that's blasphemy.

So you are saying that God was wrong when he chose certain people before the creation of the world to do good works which he prapred in advance for them to do.

I have said no such thing. And I have no idea how you got that from what I have posted of God's word.


[quote:29a27]You are also saying that you are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, are you not?

Again, I have said no such thing.

What I do find incredible is all that some seem to read that isn't there. Very incredible.

Of course you're saying that if one chooses to walk away to earthly things that you are stornger than the Holy Spirit! Who do you think enables you to believe? The tooth fairy? Your sinful nature? Your own intelligence and wisdom? Sorry, but Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved-through faith-and this not from yourselves-it is the gift from God, not by works so that no one can boast."

Sorry, but you do not own the Holy Spirit. It owns you. And to say otherwise is to say that you are more powerful than he is. which is of course, untrue. [/quote:29a27]

Of course you're saying that if one chooses to walk away to earthly things that you are stornger than the Holy Spirit!

Nope, I'm not saying that. You saying that I am saying that does not make it so for I am not saying that

Sorry, but you do not own the Holy Spirit. It owns you. And to say otherwise is to say that you are more powerful than he is.

I have never even suggested anything like this. : Sorry, but I don't understand your attack approach. (This is not to mean that you are attacking me personally, I don't see that. But it is an interesting angle NOT of what I've posted of God's word.)

I totally agree with Ephesians 2:8-9

Thank you, God, for the gift of your grace :D

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, remember, but it's easy to say you;re not saying something with no explanation of what you are saying. Anyone can do that. Until you tell me how walking away from God doesn't make the devil stronger than the Holy Spirit, then your statements are contradictory and not valid.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I knew i shouldn't have read your post, Orthodox. But since I did, I will respond.

Trying to get people to doubt their salvation is not a fruit of the Spirit. It is from the devil. It is not faith, but fear and doubt. Until you have faith, you will misinterpret scripture and try to get others to live in fear and doubt also. That's also what the devil tries to do. Sorry, that won't work with me. I believe Jesus when he says "No one can snatch them out of my hand." You obviously do not. So you and I are coming from opposite places and will never agree.

Of course you are correct- getting people to doubt their salvation is of Satan- but this is not my intent. My intent is bring forth the whole gospel. Getting people to believe half of the gospel is most certainly of Satan.

You are of the belief that you lose your free will when you 'get saved.' I declare that we demonstrate the persistence of our free will by disobeying as we do- and by obeying when we do. We are only able to obey by His grace, but it is still our choice.

How many of us have thought "I know I must forgive (him/her/them) Lord, but it is very hard. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours."

Choices. God gives us the power to make the correct ones.

After this, don't read my posts, Heidi- obviously they upset you. I will continue to confront the error you promote, and do so as politely, kindly, yet resolutely as God gives me strength for.

 

[Remember]

Sorry, remember, but it's easy to say you;re not saying something with no explanation of what you are saying. Anyone can do that. Until you tell me how walking away from God doesn't make the devil stronger than the Holy Spirit, then your statements are contradictory and not valid.

I'm sorry you feel that the Biblical references I quoted are not explanation enough. God's word is explanation enough for me. :D

2 Peter 2:20-22 and Prov 26:11 (and this is far from a total Biblical listing on this subject) tell us that God (not man or the devil) gave us free choice and that God knows some will choose to turn away.

This is a good explanation of why he gave us these and other examples (like Job), so we would know that it has, can and will be done or not of our own choice. Some will endure to the end:

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved.

and some will not, they will walk away :

Matt 19:22-24 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

"Iiiiif I were a rich maaaan ... Yaa da daa da daa da" (Always enjoyed that musical )

It's in the Bible, Heidi, for good reason; and the Bible is the rule book I do follow :D

 

[von]

[quote="Heidi"
So you don't believe Jesus when he said "No one can snatch us out of his hand." Is that correct? :o Sorry, but neither we nor the devil is stronger than the Holy Spirit. You must also not believe that "the one who is in you is greater then the one who is in the world." Nor do you believe that "My sheep know me and I know them. They listen to my voice." I do. Those who walk away are obviously not listening to Christ's voice so they cannot be his true sheep now can they? [/quote]


I truly believe that no one can pluck me out of the Father's hand. Nor do I believe that I am stonger than the Holy Spirit. But you make it sound like He has us in a head lock. I have to laugh, and I'm sorry but that is funny.
You do have the last part right. those who walk away are not listening to his voice. they are doing their own will.

The Bible most certainly is our rule book. God is not just a God of love. He is a jealous God and He is also a God of wrath.

 

[von]

We don't walk in fear. I do not kow where you get that. I will tell you this though. I rather scare someone into heaven than to love them into hell.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

You do have the last part right. those who walk away are not listening to his voice. they are doing their own will.

They are not listening because they can't hear it because they are not his sheep.

 

[Heidi]

Sorry, remember, but it's easy to say you;re not saying something with no explanation of what you are saying. Anyone can do that. Until you tell me how walking away from God doesn't make the devil stronger than the Holy Spirit, then your statements are contradictory and not valid.

I'm sorry you feel that the Biblical references I quoted are not explanation enough. God's word is explanation enough for me. :D

2 Peter 2:20-22 and Prov 26:11 (and this is far from a total Biblical listing on this subject) tell us that God (not man or the devil) gave us free choice and that God knows some will choose to turn away.

This is a good explanation of why he gave us these and other examples (like Job), so we would know that it has, can and will be done or not of our own choice. Some will endure to the end:

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved.

and some will not, they will walk away :

Matt 19:22-24 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

"Iiiiif I were a rich maaaan ... Yaa da daa da daa da" (Always enjoyed that musical )

It's in the Bible, Heidi, for good reason; and the Bible is the rule book I do follow :D

Your quotes have nothing to do with people who are saved, Remember. The rich man was not saved but asked how he could get into heaven. He was not able to give up his worldly wealth. And since he was not saved to begin with, then he could not lose his salvation.

Secondly, your verse in Peter says nothing about free choice. On the contrary, 1 Peter 2:8, "they stumble because they disobey the message which is also what they were destined for."

These verses indicate we do not have free will;

Romans 6:18, "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Romans 7:15-18, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate to do...As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me...For i have the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out."

"A man is a slave to whatever masters him."

John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but i chose you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last."

Romans 8:8, "Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

Ephesians 1:4, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love, he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Christ Jesus in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the One he loves."

Romans 11:29, "For God's gift and his call are irrevocable."

There are many, many more passages that talk about the fact that God is in control of the univrse, not us. But the last quote says it all. God does not make mistakes, nor does the bible contradict itself at any time. So all you have to do is believe Ephesians 2:8-9, and Jesus when he says; "No one can snatch them out my hand. He does not lie. And arguing against Jesus is a waste of time. You're going to lose.

 

[Heidi]

You do have the last part right. those who walk away are not listening to his voice. they are doing their own will.

They are not listening because they can't hear it because they are not his sheep.

How right your are, Merry. Christ's true sheep not only listen to his words, they believe him.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

My sheep hear my voice and they follow me! How can anyone argue that point? I have no idea!

If you are a sheep then you will do what sheep do. - follow the shepherd
If you are a goat then you will do what goats do. - walk away from the shepherd