LOL! Common soldier! After all that manure, you want to go trough even more of it? If nothing else, War is the perfect reason to seek the Pretrib Solution!
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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural
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Malachi
Member
Apart from the typo, it is one thing to say "I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture" and another thing entirely to say "Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural".
Actually, Scripture supports a Pre-Tribulation Rapture much more strongly than any other view. I would challenge anyone to show even one Bible verse that connects the Rapture to the Tribulation.
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Malachi
Member
Matthew 24 has nothing whatsoever to say about the Church or the Rapture. That is the fundamental mistake of the anti-pre-trib group. In fact, at that stage the apostles did not even have an inkling about the Church, the Bride of Christ. Please note what they asked the Lord just at the point that He was about to return to Heaven, and please note His answer: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).
That's simple.
Just tie in any verse to the day of the Lord and you have a post-trib rapture.
Cygnus
Member
The way I see it..Jesus returns twice. Well, almost returns twice. The first time Jesus stops in the air in the clouds. The second time Jesus is on a horse.
Acts 1:9
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight
Acts 1: 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
So, Jesus comes back the same way as He left...clouds are involved.
1st Thes 4:17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The second time Jesus returns...He's on a horse. Jesus didn't ride a horse into heaven. Acts just proved that.
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Zech 14: 4 tells us about Christ "second" arrival...On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
The first return of Christ in the air...is the Pre-Trib rapture of the church.
The second return is Post Trib.
Acts 1:9
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight
Acts 1: 10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
So, Jesus comes back the same way as He left...clouds are involved.
1st Thes 4:17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The second time Jesus returns...He's on a horse. Jesus didn't ride a horse into heaven. Acts just proved that.
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Zech 14: 4 tells us about Christ "second" arrival...On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
The first return of Christ in the air...is the Pre-Trib rapture of the church.
The second return is Post Trib.
Cygnus, I believe you are misinterpreting 1 Thessalonians 4:17;.
The glorified Christ is mentioned twice in the New Testament.
I believe they are both in reference to the same occurrence.
Revelation 14:17;
"I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
The verses go on as Christ and his angels harvest the earth.
On the other hand, too many people separate Scripture with Chapter numbers.
We must remember that chapters were put in my a man in France in the 1700's.
Prior to that, letters were read as one and not by chapters.
Thus, 1 Thessalonians ends chapter 4 with verse 18, and the very next sentence talks about the day of the Lord.
Paul meant all along that they tie together.
Pre-trib believers try to change that because they have nothing else to go on.
The day of the Lord is just one sentence away from the rapture.
One should not debate the rapture, but rather when does the rapture occur.
Malachi
Member
Not that simple. Tie in the Day of the Lord to the salvation of the saints, instead of the judgement of the unbelieving and the ungodly.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jesus says last day , there are a few more verses where Jesus says last day.. What day comes after the Creators last day ?
Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jesus says last day , there are a few more verses where Jesus says last day.. What day comes after the Creators last day ?
Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
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Malachi
Member
LAST DAY = RESURRECTION OF JUST + RESURRECTION OF UNJUST
The "last day" is more that 1,000 years long. Please see Revelation 20.
I just used a couple of Scriptures to make my point.
Do you have any?
turnorburn
Member
Several years ago i told a friend at least i thought he was my friend that the pre-trib rapture doctrine was a doctrine of devils.. we haven't spoken to one another since then. Have we forgotten that these devils that bounce around in our atmosphere can make up stories that we'll swallow?
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
There is no sneak peek coming of Jesus before his second coming..
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
There is no sneak peek coming of Jesus before his second coming..
turnorburn
Member
That's what i told him but nope no dice..
Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Brings to mind this old hymn..
Original Trinity Hymnal, #727
When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder,
When the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.
On that bright and cloudless morning when the dead in Christ shall rise,
And the glory of his resurrection share;
When his chosen ones shall gather to their home beyond the skies,
And the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.
Let us labor for the Master from the dawn till setting sun,
Let us talk of all his wondrous love and care;
Then when all of life is over, and our work on earth is done,
And the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there.
Some times we can say things a better way ... you knucklehead...
Knucklehead?Some times we can say things a better way ... you knucklehead...
You stole that from me.
That was my saying.
Lol, you always know how to win.
