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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

th1b.taylor said:
http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/sixteenproofs.cfm
The link demonstrates the 16 reasons to believe as I do in the Pretrib Rapture of the Saints.
Click to expand...

in case you miss it read my post #59 and I did go look at that link you posted.

The biggest problem with the teaching of a Pretrib Rapture is when it doesn't happen the way it has been taught as a theory is that many could fall away in thinking they have been deceived, 2Thess 2:3 and denounce Jesus as they take the mark of the beast in order to save their own life.

Pretrib theory was first taught by Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first taught the pretrib view in 1830. Her theory was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something. There is no scripture that speaks about a Pretrib, but those who have received Jesus being sealed by His Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 1:13. The only way to break that seal is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31. The falling away will be those who blasphemy the Holy Spirit and take the mark of the beast for they lack knowledge believing theories instead of Gods spoken word.
 
th1b.taylor said:
I don't see the relevance of your scripture, nobody has put forth that such is not the case and some views of the Day of the LORD require that piece of info to stand.
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1000 years is only used here in Rev 20 as a symbolic or generic number just as being the same as a 1000 years is one day or 1000 generations, 2Peter 3:8; Deu 7:9; 1Chron 16:15; Psalms 105:8
 
Endtime_Survivors said:
Hi for_his_glory. Nice topic. I'm not sure I agree with all your conclusions but I definitely agree that Christians will be faced with the great tribulation. My understanding is that Jesus will return for his followers at the 7th trump (i.e. the last trumpet) and will attend the marriage supper of the lamb in the "new Jerusalem come down out of heaven" while the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out on a disobedient world down below, culminating in the 7th vial (the battle of armageddon) in which Jesus (on a white horse) comes down to the battle field with the heavenly host (including those who were previously raptured) to defeat the armies of the earth which gathered together to fight against God.
Click to expand...

Hi Endtime_Survivors and welcome to CF,
For the sake of repeating myself I will direct you to my post #59 as this might help you understand what I believe. God bless and glad to have you with us.
 
for_his_glory said:
Could you please share the scriptures where it speaks of a pretrb rapture as I have never found any.
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I already did. John 14:1-4 in a different thread. You did not give it the consideration it deserves. The important thing to note is that the Rapture is the Bridegroom coming for His Bride. The Second Coming is the Divine Judge coming against His enemies. Two totally different purposes and results.
 
Malachi said:
Check my posts. Plenty of Scriptures are given.
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I believe you use plenty of Scripture.
But if you use a Scripture once, that does not mean you never have to use one again.
You need to use Scripture as many times as possible and necessary.
It adds credence to whatever you say and whoever you say it to.
And you never know when someone is reading a thread and has yet to respond to it.
If they step in and don't use Scripture, no one may know what they are talking about.
On a Christian forum, it is good practice to continually use Scripture.
 
Malachi said:
I already did. John 14:1-4 in a different thread. You did not give it the consideration it deserves. The important thing to note is that the Rapture is the Bridegroom coming for His Bride. The Second Coming is the Divine Judge coming against His enemies. Two totally different purposes and results.
Click to expand...

Where does John 14:1-4 mention a pretrib rapture? We all know Christ is going to return for His Bride, but not how theories teach it to be. The mansion is the New Jerusalem with many rooms for us that will be ushered down at the end of days and not before some seven year tribulation as scriptures describes the end of days tribulation as 3 1/2 years.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation period (not a seven year) as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.

Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7

1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6

42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Cygnus, I believe you are misinterpreting 1 Thessalonians 4:17;.
The glorified Christ is mentioned twice in the New Testament.
I believe they are both in reference to the same occurrence.
Revelation 14:17;
"I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
The verses go on as Christ and his angels harvest the earth.

On the other hand, too many people separate Scripture with Chapter numbers.
We must remember that chapters were put in my a man in France in the 1700's.
Prior to that, letters were read as one and not by chapters.
Thus, 1 Thessalonians ends chapter 4 with verse 18, and the very next sentence talks about the day of the Lord.
Paul meant all along that they tie together.
Pre-trib believers try to change that because they have nothing else to go on.
The day of the Lord is just one sentence away from the rapture.

One should not debate the rapture, but rather when does the rapture occur.
Click to expand...
Christ returns with the "clouds" ...rapture.
Then a second time on a white horse.

To me...and many others there are two returns.
 
for_his_glory said:
in case you miss it read my post #59 and I did go look at that link you posted.

The biggest problem with the teaching of a Pretrib Rapture is when it doesn't happen the way it has been taught as a theory is that many could fall away in thinking they have been deceived, 2Thess 2:3 and denounce Jesus as they take the mark of the beast in order to save their own life.

Pretrib theory was first taught by Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first taught the pretrib view in 1830. Her theory was handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something. There is no scripture that speaks about a Pretrib, but those who have received Jesus being sealed by His Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 1:13. The only way to break that seal is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31. The falling away will be those who blasphemy the Holy Spirit and take the mark of the beast for they lack knowledge believing theories instead of Gods spoken word.
Click to expand...
I am sorry but that is a weak statement. All positions on this subject, the Lord's Day, can be considered theory and by some circle of studied people each is. As I said earlier, this is not a Salvic topic and is not one I am willing to be dogmatic about. Failing to teach it because some might fall away when the father has included the scriptures teaching it as a distinct possibility is a good bit to arrogant for me to ever want any part of. In my class when this came up I taught all three major positions and always clarified my personal preference because I want to be fair and blameless here. I am not nearly as smart as God and He left this subject in a bit of a fog and He is perfect meaning He does nothing without a reason. Remember, we are, every one of us born with the same amount of faith and we all, at some point decide where to put it. And I stand firmly in position and if another falls away, were they saved? If they were, they are and if they were not, nothing, in truth, changed. What is between you and our God, I do not control, nor should I ever blow my ego so large as to fool myself.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
Cygnus, I believe you are misinterpreting 1 Thessalonians 4:17;.
The glorified Christ is mentioned twice in the New Testament.
I believe they are both in reference to the same occurrence.
Revelation 14:17;
"I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.
The verses go on as Christ and his angels harvest the earth.

On the other hand, too many people separate Scripture with Chapter numbers.
We must remember that chapters were put in my a man in France in the 1700's.
Prior to that, letters were read as one and not by chapters.
Thus, 1 Thessalonians ends chapter 4 with verse 18, and the very next sentence talks about the day of the Lord.
Paul meant all along that they tie together.
Pre-trib believers try to change that because they have nothing else to go on.
The day of the Lord is just one sentence away from the rapture.

One should not debate the rapture, but rather when does the rapture occur.
Click to expand...
Christ returns with the "clouds" ...rapture.
Then a second time on a white horse.

To me...and many others there are two returns.
 
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Cygnus said:
Christ returns with the "clouds" ...rapture.
Then a second time on a white horse.

To me...and many others there are two returns.
Click to expand...
LOL! I'm going to stir here because return, to me, means feet on the ground and at the Rapture He will not plant one tootsie on the ground. Now, is that meat that just floated to the top and sunk once more... where is my spoon?
 
A couple verse about His returns..

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
 
Cygnus said:
Christ returns with the "clouds" ...rapture.
Then a second time on a white horse.

To me...and many others there are two returns.
Click to expand...
Well, you have a good imagination anyway.
Why don't you get the pastor of your church on here and we'll hear what he has to say.
 
reba said:
A couple verse about His returns..

Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Click to expand...

Lol, Reba, you're funny.
Not one of those verses said anything about his return.
 
th1b.taylor said:
LOL! I'm going to stir here because return, to me, means feet on the ground and at the Rapture He will not plant one tootsie on the ground. Now, is that meat that just floated to the top and sunk once more... where is my spoon?
Click to expand...

Now your splitting hairs.
When Jesus returns and steps on the ground...Mt of Olives....this isn't when the rapture occurs.
 
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