Questions about the bible.

[Curious]

I have just finished reading the bible from Genesis to revelation (it was quite enjoyable, though reading through the genealogies was a bit of a mission) and have loads of questions.
For starters, to become a Christian do I need to believe that that the creation story in genesis actually happened as recorded in Genesis?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Curious
The bible is like a puzzle with pieces to be put together. Theologians have constructed the puzzle so to speak.
Men are fallible so such works are not without error, yet the thoughts and work of many trained men is superior to what one person could accomplish. Thus I suggest you read a 'Systematic Theology' book that will put many of the pieces of the puzzle together. I suggest Wayne Grudem's - SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY • An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine •

Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

If you have questions, try gotquestions.org

 

[Curious]

Curious
The bible is like a puzzle with pieces to be put together. Theologians have constructed the puzzle so to speak.
Men are fallible so such works are not without error, yet the thoughts and work of many trained men is superior to what one person could accomplish. Thus I suggest you read a 'Systematic Theology' book that will put many of the pieces of the puzzle together. I suggest Wayne Grudem's - SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY • An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine •

Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

If you have questions, try gotquestions.org

In this statement it would appear that you have decided what God would do in this situation. Is it right for you to form God into your likeness?

I understand your point of view, and the answer is yes. I have rejected the Koran's depiction of a god as that god is cruel, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, pro-slavery, and is very vindictive, and I am satisfied that that god does not exist.
When I read through the Bible I was compelled to come to similar conclusions. I have read quite a bit about the Christian God on various Christian sites over the last few days. He is presented as loving and kind and desirous of us getting to know Him, but willing to torture people forever, but this does not tie up with what I have read in the Bible. though Jesus was very clear on the torture bit, yet the old testament is largely silent on the subject as is the apostle Paul.I

 

[Curious]

Curious
The bible is like a puzzle with pieces to be put together. Theologians have constructed the puzzle so to speak.
Men are fallible so such works are not without error, yet the thoughts and work of many trained men is superior to what one person could accomplish. Thus I suggest you read a 'Systematic Theology' book that will put many of the pieces of the puzzle together. I suggest Wayne Grudem's - SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY • An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine •

Act 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

If you have questions, try gotquestions.org

Thanks Fastfredy, the internet is a great resource.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I understand your point of view, and the answer is yes. I have rejected the Koran's depiction of a god as that god is cruel, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, pro-slavery, and is very vindictive, and I am satisfied that that god does not exist.
When I read through the Bible I was compelled to come to similar conclusions. I have read quite a bit about the Christian God on various Christian sites over the last few days. He is presented as loving and kind and desirous of us getting to know Him, but willing to torture people forever, but this does not tie up with what I have read in the Bible. though Jesus was very clear on the torture bit, yet the old testament is largely silent on the subject as is the apostle Paul.

If your search for God is to go through a filter that you define (he must be this and can't be that) you will not find him. As WIP stated, "Is it right for you to form God into your likeness?"

Aside: I do see where one seeking God would need a criteria to know you have found Him; I am sympathetic to that logic. That's not how it works; God must find you (some disagree with me on this point ... see DOES ANYONE SEEK GOD thread). Good luck (not that luck exists ... lol).

 

[WIP]

He is presented as loving and kind and desirous of us getting to know Him, but willing to torture people forever,

I think this is a misunderstanding. God isn't choosing to torture people forever. People make this choice for themselves. When God first created mankind, they were sinless and did not know about good and evil. When Satan presented them with the option to "be like God" that is when they chose to take the path to destruction. They knew where that path led for God told them that to partake of that one temptation would lead to death. Mankind continues to deny God's direction and take that path even to this day.

God created us with the freedom to make that choice for that is love. Without that freedom, we would be nothing more than puppets or robots.

 

[humble soul]

Hell is not a torture chamber?

 

[daninthelionsden]

I think this is a misunderstanding. God isn't choosing to torture people forever. People make this choice for themselves. When God first created mankind, they were sinless and did not know about good and evil. When Satan presented them with the option to "be like God" that is when they chose to take the path to destruction. They knew where that path led for God told them that to partake of that one temptation would lead to death. Mankind continues to deny God's direction and take that path even to this day.

God created us with the freedom to make that choice for that is love. Without that freedom, we would be nothing more than puppets or robots.

Like CS Lewis states "The Gates of Hell are locked from within."

 

[Curious]

I think this is a misunderstanding. God isn't choosing to torture people forever. People make this choice for themselves. When God first created mankind, they were sinless and did not know about good and evil. When Satan presented them with the option to "be like God" that is when they chose to take the path to destruction. They knew where that path led for God told them that to partake of that one temptation would lead to death. Mankind continues to deny God's direction and take that path even to this day.

God created us with the freedom to make that choice for that is love. Without that freedom, we would be nothing more than puppets or robots.

That depends on your flavor of Christianity. I was talking to someone online yesterday who is a Calvinist and does not believe in free will who said that if you are destined for hell you are destined for hell. No person would want to be tortured forever. I have been watching a Christian apologist named Ravi Zacharias. He claims heaven would be hell for those not fitted for. I can't say I have seen that in the bible. Do you think it is a good thing for people to be tortured with no hope of the pain and suffering ending?

 

[Fastfredy0]

That depends on your flavor of Christianity. I was talking to someone online yesterday who is a Calvinist and does not believe in free will

I am Calvinist. Calvinist's believe in free will but define it differently than non-calvinists.
To a Calvinist FREE WILL is "we always chose what we desire most at the time". Some Calvinists might disagree, but this would be the official Calvinist definition IMO (I can get references).
If you ask a non-calvinist for a definition of FREE WILL, you probably won't get one or will get an incomplete definition. Something like, they are free to chose but when asked what determines how they chose they usually won't answer. They don't want to get into cause and effect. Libertarian Free Will is non-calvinistic ... it is the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty). You can also look up 'prevenient grace' where God supposedly neutralizes a person's sin nature (a nature making it impossible to believe God salvifically) so that the person can chose to believe. The R.C. go for this I believe. You won't find it in the Bible, though some point to 4 verses they portend to support the concept.

if you are destined for hell you are destined for hell.

This is accurate, if incomplete. Calvinists will say that NO ONE SEEKS GOD. God must seek the person He wishes to save and God does not seek everyone. All those He seeks will be saved. In regards to "free will", a Calvinist will say God changes our will such that the person of his own volition wants to believe salvificly.

No person would want to be tortured forever.

True. Those that don't believe in Christ don't believe they will be tortured in hell either.

I have been watching a Christian apologist named Ravi Zacharias. He claims heaven would be hell for those not fitted for.

Ravi is not a Calvinist; just died a couple months ago. That claim doesn't make sense to me; probably some context needed.

I can't say I have seen that in the bible.

Yeah, me either. Again, context may be missing.

Do you think it is a good thing for people to be tortured with no hope of the pain and suffering ending?

Again, context is missing. When it comes to the final judgement/destination of people God is always just. It is a 'good thing' that God is just as an unjust God by definition is not a 'good thing'. Now, in the smaller context of the person going to hell, I agree that this is not a good thing. Similarly, it is good that a murderer goes to prison, but from the murderer stand point; not so good.

 

[WIP]

That depends on your flavor of Christianity. I was talking to someone online yesterday who is a Calvinist and does not believe in free will who said that if you are destined for hell you are destined for hell. No person would want to be tortured forever. I have been watching a Christian apologist named Ravi Zacharias. He claims heaven would be hell for those not fitted for. I can't say I have seen that in the bible. Do you think it is a good thing for people to be tortured with no hope of the pain and suffering ending?

From my perspective, I think the best way I can explain it is you're looking at it from a victim's position. The way I see it, we are all destined for hell and the way I understand hell is that it is eternity without the presence of God. For me, to spend eternity without God would be hellish.

For those who reject God and do not want eternity with God in heaven, it would be like hell to be forced to do so. God will not force any of us to be with Him in heaven if we don't want it. If we want it, we demonstrate that by accepting the gift of salvation that He offers.

 

[Fastfredy0]

From my perspective, I think the best way I can explain it is you're looking at it from a victim's position.

Agreed.

The way I see it, we are all destined for hell

"Destined (adj.) - certain to meet (a particular fate).
God is all knowing and therefore one is eternally destined to either hell or heaven. (Eph. 1:4) (Exception: If open-theists are right, then God doesn't know the future for that is not possible; thus, we can't know where anyone is destined to go as know one knows).

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank

Thank you for a very straightforward, friendly answer. I am seeking to understand religion, most of the inhabitants of the planet are religious. I am just curious to know what the bible teaches. It took me nearly a year to read my way through it, and to be honest there is a huge amount of the text that I don't understand. The internet has been useful to do some research, but speaking to a real live person is much more helpful. As I said earlier, I am not here to debate, criticize or question a person's faith. I have a family member who became a Jehovahs Witness and he now has very little to do with me which hurts a lot. That is why I am very cautious. I suffer badly at times from mental health problems, and can be easily led by my emotional state. Anyway enough said. Thankyou for taking the time to answer my questions.

Hi Curious,
I can't go back and read FIVE pages in just two days....
But I'd like to answer you O.P. question.

This is how I see religion...just some random thoughts:

First, congrats on reading the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I don't know many that can do this.
My brother has done this about 5 times already....so I guess it's possible!

Don't learn too much from the internet unless you know who to listen to....and you'll get different recommendations.
Better to start by asking us and getting your answers and then sifting through them. Eventually you'll want a pastor or priest.

God has always revealed Himself to man.
All men know God in one way or another.
It's our decision if we wish to worship the creator of the universe.
Because if HE didn't create it...what did??

You could understand Adam and Eve however you want to. This has nothing to do with soteriology, which is the teaching of how to be saved or salvation theology.

After you've decided that you want to know God,,,,you have to decide who Jesus was.
"But who do YOU say that I am?" Matthew 16:15
The most important question in the bible.
Was Jesus a good teacher/Rabbi?
Was He a liar?
Was He a lunatic?
or
Is He God incarnated?

If you think Jesus is God incarnated...come to save us because God knew from the beginning we would fail the Garden test and would need salvation...then you could call yourself a Christian.

Next, after you understand some stuff, you feel like you want to follow Jesus and be a disciple of His...you the student, He the teacher.

This will improve you life, make you a member of the Kingdom, and give you the knowledge that you'll spend eternity with God.

Easy enough.
The rest is all theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

That depends on your flavor of Christianity. I was talking to someone online yesterday who is a Calvinist and does not believe in free will who said that if you are destined for hell you are destined for hell. No person would want to be tortured forever. I have been watching a Christian apologist named Ravi Zacharias. He claims heaven would be hell for those not fitted for. I can't say I have seen that in the bible. Do you think it is a good thing for people to be tortured with no hope of the pain and suffering ending?

Calvinism is heresy. I think you already understand this.
You've read through the N.T.
Does God give YOU the choice of being saved or not?
Or does it sound to you like HE decides who's going to heaven or hell?

Another question.
Do you see God as a God of love, mercy and justice?
Then it stands to reason that He'll give all His creatures an opportunity to be with Him.

There are some calvinists on this forum.
They'll give you long-winded explanations for easy ideas.
For instance FREE WILL. A child knows what free will is but they had to find a different meaning for it because
Calvin did not believe in free will.

How does a person have free will if it's not up to them to decide anything about their life???
Calvinists believe that God predetermined everything about every individual before the beginning of time.
We would speak more to this if you wish. I quote the writings of Calvin and they're not pleasant. No free will, no opportunity to choose heaven...it's a messy theology Calvin had.
Why bother yourself with this anyway?

And if you want the names of some good online teachers, just say the word.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed.


"Destined (adj.) - certain to meet (a particular fate).
God is all knowing and therefore one is eternally destined to either hell or heaven. (Eph. 1:4) (Exception: If open-theists are right, then God doesn't know the future for that is not possible; thus, we can't know where anyone is destined to go as know one knows).

We are not destined for heaven or hell.
God does not predestine anything except HOW to be saved through Jesus Christ.
Open theism is incorrect.
God knows all.
We can know where we are going because we can CHOOSE where we want to spend eternity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hell is not a torture chamber?

Is prison a torture chamber?

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand your point of view, and the answer is yes. I have rejected the Koran's depiction of a god as that god is cruel, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, pro-slavery, and is very vindictive, and I am satisfied that that god does not exist.
When I read through the Bible I was compelled to come to similar conclusions. I have read quite a bit about the Christian God on various Christian sites over the last few days. He is presented as loving and kind and desirous of us getting to know Him, but willing to torture people forever, but this does not tie up with what I have read in the Bible. though Jesus was very clear on the torture bit, yet the old testament is largely silent on the subject as is the apostle Paul.I

The concept of hell was not very formed in the O.T.
God did not reveal Himself all at one time and certainly did not tell more than we could take in.
The O.T. was written beginning 4,000 years ago...we tend to forget this at times.

Coming up to Jesus' time - the Saducees did not believe in an afterlife.
The Pharisees did believe in an afterlife.
But what is important is that Jesus believed in an afterlife and He explained that there is a narrow road and a wide road and He said who will be on the wide road...those that practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:23
IOW, those that do not follow God's commandments.

The other point I'd like to make is that hell is not a torture chamber.
Torture is when you hurt someone for the sake of hurting them or, possibly, to get some information from them.

It is not torture when YOU decide to hurt yourself and/or cause yourself pain.
God is not torturing anyone by sending them in a place where He is not...
we know that sin cannot enter heaven...Revelation 21:27
So since God has made His conditions be known by us...
we cannot complain if we pay no attention to them....
and end up without God for eternity.

 

[humble soul]

The way I see it, we are all destined for hell

What a depressing philosophy....

 

[WIP]

What a depressing philosophy....

Yes, and that's why Jesus came with good news!!!

 

[Curious]

The concept of hell was not very formed in the O.T.
God did not reveal Himself all at one time and certainly did not tell more than we could take in.
The O.T. was written beginning 4,000 years ago...we tend to forget this at times.

Coming up to Jesus' time - the Saducees did not believe in an afterlife.
The Pharisees did believe in an afterlife.
But what is important is that Jesus believed in an afterlife and He explained that there is a narrow road and a wide road and He said who will be on the wide road...those that practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:23
IOW, those that do not follow God's commandments.

The other point I'd like to make is that hell is not a torture chamber.
Torture is when you hurt someone for the sake of hurting them or, possibly, to get some information from them.

It is not torture when YOU decide to hurt yourself and/or cause yourself pain.
God is not torturing anyone by sending them in a place where He is not...
we know that sin cannot enter heaven...Revelation 21:27
So since God has made His conditions be known by us...
we cannot complain if we pay no attention to them....
and end up without God for eternity.

Why would a loving God make it like a puzzle? If you are a 12-year-old boy being sodomized by a priest, then indeed the love of god is a massive puzzle. Equally, if you are 12-year-old girl being raped by your pastor, God is indeed a puzzle. I have a friend who killed himself because God clearly stated that homosexuality is a terrible sin worthy of death. He obeyed God and killed himself. God has a very high opinion of males and a very low opinion of females. Why is that? Ravi Zacharias was a great proponent of Christianity, I have watched many of his talks. But he is a liar (No degrees) a rapist, a blackmailer, and just an all-around fraud. Yet, despite all this, Christians are debating if the man is in heaven or not. John Macarthur, of grace for you, condemns the greed of televangelists, yet owns three homes and has an income that would make your eyes water. Yet if you read the Gospel according to Jesus, written by John and which I have read, he condemns those who don't give up everything to follow Christ. James Dobson a well-known Christian Identity, interviewed Ted Bundy just before he was executed. Bundy repented, and if the Bible is correct is now in heaven. Meanwhile, those he raped and murdered are roasting in hell if they haven't repented. I read of Christians praising God because they prayed and he gave them a parking spot, meanwhile a young woman who was being raped daily by her dad prayed to god for years to escape - but no word or action from a god. Starving children bu the millions have met the same result. Jesus told those who followed Him to give up all they have and follow him, but very few people ever do. Thank goodness most people take the Bible with many grains of salt, I have yet to meet a Christian who doesn't.

 

[humble soul]

Thank goodness most people take the Bible with many grains of salt, I have yet to

I cherry pick the Bible. I love the wise parts.
But fundamentalists say i cant do that. All or nothing thinking I lack.
I remain Christian though some say I don't qualify.