“The Romans Road†has a disastrous fork in the road!

[Deborah13]

If OSAS is incorrect, SOME blindly trusting in it obviously will be letting their guard down.

You mean like people blindly following one must do works ? They are in danger of letting their guard down and associating their works to their salvation that only comes through the blood of Christ?

It works both ways John, any time any teaching is taken beyond the scripture there is danger of satan corrupting the heart and mind of the believer.

"should we keep on sinning that grace should abound?" "heaven forbid!"

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

I think we can agree that no one obeys to the letter of the law. So we see grace is necessary. By the same token we need to do our best to submit to the Lord of we want to live a happy life in a good relationship with Him. Could it lead someone to completely reject their Lord and thus their salvation? I don't know.

From a TULIP view if one backslides they were never saved to begin with. That's pretty presumptuous in my opinion.
The other camp will say they lost their salvation. That's pretty presumptuous in my opinion.

So by the TULIP view, King David was never saved to begin with.
By the other camps view he lost his salvation until he repented some months later.
I don't see either view matching God's view of David's position with God.

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,"
Did David profess this before or after he messed up so badly? I don't know. But certainly we can accept that he was wise in the ways of God.

I want God to deal mercifully with me and so I do my best to give mercy to others.

 

[John Zain]

Are you aware that some who believed (pisteou) ended up
not being (staying) Christians, according to John?

Well those who turn from grace back to law, have rejected Christ and are cut-off from Him,
is this who you are speaking?

I'm sorry, but I cannot put my finger on the 3 passages about believers
who left Jesus, walked with Him no more, etc.

But, these had previously been in the group who believed (pisteo),
which is the same word used in such world-famous verses as John 3:16.
Means nothing ... In most (all?) cases, IMO, it is referring to an intellectual belief.

Notice in the John 3:16-type passages, nothing is said about people being born-again.
None of these believers had been born-again ... no wonder they walked.
See the parable of the soils ... these people belong to the first 3 types.
Guess why? ... The Spirit had not yet been poured out (not for another 3 years!).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If OSAS is incorrect, SOME blindly trusting in it obviously will be letting their guard down.

You mean like people blindly following one must do works ? They are in danger of letting their guard down and associating their works to their salvation that only comes through the blood of Christ?

Faith leading to repentance from dead works for salvation does not mean a person is made righteous by what they do. But for some reason that's all a lot of people can hear in that.

 

[George Muller]

If OSAS is incorrect, SOME blindly trusting in it obviously will be letting their guard down.

You mean like people blindly following one must do works ? They are in danger of letting their guard down and associating their works to their salvation that only comes through the blood of Christ?

Faith leading to repentance from dead works for salvation does not mean a person is made righteous by what they do. But for some reason that's all a lot of people can hear in that.

Well most understand the difference between "the law of faith" and the "law of works" one cannot be under both. The "law of faith" has living works OF FAITH, as Abraham and Rahab. But they where not justified by the "law of works" but by faith and obedience from the heart that which they believed, This is the "law of faith"

 

[Eugene]

If OSAS is incorrect, SOME blindly trusting in it obviously will be letting their guard down.

Like many having doctrines without exception, your use of the word "If" denies it.

IMO, many people who are trusting in false doctrines are on the broad road.

Again an example of indecisiveness; "IMO."

You stated in the following quote:

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, etc.,

And then you use Hebrews 10:26-31 to substantiate your claim that Christians can fall away. "If we sin willfully?" If I'm interpreting your thought here correctly, may I ask what willful sin is needed to suffer this unforgivable condition? Is it the one time we willfully lie and we all have, we do not love our neighbor as ourselves and we don't; oh the law covers a plethora of fatal illustrations as the ministration of death.

Romans Chapter Thirteen gives the example of human government having rule as God's ministers, and I often wonder how many are never again going to again be able to repent after driving over the speed limit even once on purpose.

Dear brother, I do hope you realize I am not writing this to your condemnation, but I do believe in OSAS as the very essence of all God's grace did, and does for us; even the faith we have is a gift so that His salvation is solely by grace.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[farouk]

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to
guide us into all truth, etc.,

Scripture please. Thanks

Heb 10:26-31

A 'knowledge of the truth' is not the same as saving faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Paul said we are MORE guilty than the Jews because we have the Holy Spirit to
guide us into all truth, etc.,

Scripture please. Thanks

Heb 10:26-31

Who is the "we" you say is more guilty than WHAT JEWS and guilty of what? Bold where you are talking about, please.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[francisdesales]

No, that is not a core belief of Islam... Christ is not mentioned, positively or negatively, as one of the pillars of Islam.

Here is one of the many direct quotes of the koran, concerning Christ Jesus, I suggest you study some before to attempt to promote your false teachings;

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son.

There are many more that prove that islam is a direct work of anti-christ.

That's a direct quote? Which chapter/verse?

My point is that it is not a pillar of Islam, a core teaching, like you state.

As usual, you are not absorbing what I am saying. You are telling us that every single Muslim ever born is/will be sent to eternal damnation. Every single person born before 25 AD. Burning in hell. Every single native American of the Western Hemisphere before 1500. In hell right now. Burning because of some "justice" of not having the chance to know about Jesus of Nazareth.

I reject such ideas. The God I believe in is merciful and takes into account the knowledge within.

I think we should let God decide whether He sends His Spirit to a particular Muslim or not. Can we leave it at that?

Well you were clearly wrong about your assertion and yet you are not humble enough to admit your error? I am sorry you do not get to decide who God saves and who He unsaves. The Word of God has already decided this.

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

George, you are the one telling me who God is going to save and who God is going to condemn. Get off your high horse. Clearly, you have no concept of the difference between "reject" and "not aware of", so this conversation is over your head.

Have a wonderful holiday basting in the freedom given to you by others while you condemn billions to hell because they had no way of knowing about Jesus of Nazareth... I place my faith in a different sort of God, Who is a God of Love and would not do such a thing.

 

[Eugene]

Have fun condemning more native Americans from the 1400's. Every last one of them. How just you are...

Me Indian; who uses my dubious heritage in vain? My great grandma said she was part white invader so as to be able to have wampum.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[George Muller]

That's a direct quote? Which chapter/verse?

My point is that it is not a pillar of Islam, a core teaching, like you state.

As usual, you are not absorbing what I am saying. You are telling us that every single Muslim ever born is/will be sent to eternal damnation. Every single person born before 25 AD. Burning in hell. Every single native American of the Western Hemisphere before 1500. In hell right now. Burning because of some "justice" of not having the chance to know about Jesus of Nazareth.

I reject such ideas. The God I believe in is merciful and takes into account the knowledge within.

I think we should let God decide whether He sends His Spirit to a particular Muslim or not. Can we leave it at that?

Well you were clearly wrong about your assertion and yet you are not humble enough to admit your error? I am sorry you do not get to decide who God saves and who He unsaves. The Word of God has already decided this.

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

George, you are the one telling me who God is going to save and who God is going to condemn. Get off your high horse. Clearly, you have no concept of the difference between "reject" and "not aware of", so this conversation is over your head.

Have a wonderful holiday basting in the freedom given to you by others while you condemn billions to hell because they had no way of knowing about Jesus of Nazareth... I place my faith in a different sort of God, Who is a God of Love and would not do such a thing.

No, I quoted the Word of God, your conflict is with what God has had written in plain and clear words.

I see you still cannot admit your error? "but this conversation is over my head"

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...you use Hebrews 10:26-31 to substantiate your claim that Christians can fall away. "If we sin willfully?" If I'm interpreting your thought here correctly, may I ask what willful sin is needed to suffer this unforgivable condition? Is it the one time we willfully lie and we all have, we do not love our neighbor as ourselves and we don't; oh the law covers a plethora of fatal illustrations as the ministration of death.

It's any sin that represents the decision to walk away from the blood of Christ. Obviously, that hardly means the sins that represent the growing pains of the sincere Christian growing up into the image and stature of Christ.

But it seems this is the distinction between motives that the church has a hard time seeing. It's WHY you're sinning that determines if your sin represents a falling away from the safety of Christ or not.

...I do believe in OSAS as the very essence of all God's grace did, and does for us...

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message. The Bible is very clear about nothing impure or evil being in the kingdom that believers will one day inhabit. Unbelievers are outside of the kingdom. The person who no longer trusts in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins has, by definition, become an unbeliever.

8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8 NIV)

...even the faith we have is a gift so that His salvation is solely by grace.

Yes, but we have to trust in that which God has graciously shown us to be the truth about heaven and hell, the gospel message, and the judgment to come. Simply knowing something is true, no matter how gracious a gift that is, is not the basis for salvation. Trusting in that which you know to be true is the basis for salvation.

28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:28-29 NIV)

If a person truly believes and trusts in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, can that person still be trusting in that which forgives if he walks away from it as evidenced by his willful return to the things he was forgiven of? But some insist you can walk away from trusting in Christ and still expect him to protect you in the judgment to come.

You are OSAS as long as you keep on believing and trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, not simply having the faith to know the gospel is true. Some say it's impossible to stop believing once you have believed. I ask, "then why all the warnings to not stop believing?"

 

[smaller]

It's any sin that represents the decision to walk away from the blood of Christ. Obviously, that hardly means the sins that represent the growing pains of the sincere Christian longing to grow up into the image and stature of Christ.

The non-OSAS crowd has been judging believers for sin without any doubt. And unbelief is also a sin.

As if the sin of any believer is any better or worse?

No.

It has been pointed to repeatedly that we have 'enemies' and those enemies prevail to no uncertain extent within 'all' believers because we 'all' sin.

To say their sin is any worse than any other believers is simply not true.

NOR is it true that God in Christ ever left them or will not save them.

s

 

[George Muller]

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message.

Have you now changed your standard? Only a few post ago you suggested that muslims had no need to accept Christ by faith, yet now you seem to try to argue the opposite? So these high standards are only for those who have been washed in the Blood of Christ? But the unwashed are in no need of the Blood? Your doctrines are very inconsistent.

 

[smaller]

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message.

Have you now changed your standard? Only a few post ago you suggested that muslims had no need to accept Christ by faith, yet now you seem to try to argue the opposite? So these high standards are only for those who have been washed in the Blood of Christ? But the unwashed are in no need of the Blood? Your doctrines are very inconsistent.

What you mention above is typical in the non-OSAS understandings in general. MOST of these 'groups' are harder on believers who do not belong to their particular 'sect' than they are to blinded unbelievers.

In the non-OSAS crowd the unbeliever represents an opportunity to proselytize. They don't term a blinded person a heretic like they do believers who don't agree with them entirely.

It's such a weird double standard it is sometimes hard to even tolerate it.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's a direct quote? Which chapter/verse?

My point is that it is not a pillar of Islam, a core teaching, like you state.

As usual, you are not absorbing what I am saying. You are telling us that every single Muslim ever born is/will be sent to eternal damnation. Every single person born before 25 AD. Burning in hell. Every single native American of the Western Hemisphere before 1500. In hell right now. Burning because of some "justice" of not having the chance to know about Jesus of Nazareth.

I reject such ideas. The God I believe in is merciful and takes into account the knowledge within.

I think we should let God decide whether He sends His Spirit to a particular Muslim or not. Can we leave it at that?

Well you were clearly wrong about your assertion and yet you are not humble enough to admit your error? I am sorry you do not get to decide who God saves and who He unsaves. The Word of God has already decided this.

Here is what you have to reject;
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

George, you are the one telling me who God is going to save and who God is going to condemn. Get off your high horse. Clearly, you have no concept of the difference between "reject" and "not aware of", so this conversation is over your head.

Have a wonderful holiday basting in the freedom given to you by others while you condemn billions to hell because they had no way of knowing about Jesus of Nazareth... I place my faith in a different sort of God, Who is a God of Love and would not do such a thing.

No, I quoted the Word of God, your conflict is with what God has had written in plain and clear words.

I see you still cannot admit your error? "but this conversation is over my head"

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Explain this verse to us, George:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (John 9:40 NIV)

I'm quoting the clear words of scripture. God condemns or acquits on the basis of what we know and are accountable for, not what we don't know. And the scriptures tell us plainly that the testimony of God has gone out into all the world in one fashion of another to make men accountable. Paul even prefaces his Romans 2 argument with that very fact:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." (Romans 1:18-21 NIV)

Let's leave the judging (that every single soul who has never heard about Christ and the gospel is damned) to God, who alone knows who has responded appropriately in faith to that which God has shown them, glorifying and thanking him, and who has not. Okay?

 

[francisdesales]

Have fun condemning more native Americans from the 1400's. Every last one of them. How just you are...

Me Indian; who uses my dubious heritage in vain? My great grandma said she was part white invader so as to be able to have wampum.

Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Yes, the Judge of all the earth shall do right, that's my point.

God desires all men to be saved - but because they were born prior to 25 AD or in the wrong hemisphere, they are damned for eternity??? Your Indian ancestors wouldn't think much of that...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God's grace allows unbelievers to enter the kingdom? That's completely contrary to the gospel message.

Have you now changed your standard? Only a few post ago you suggested that muslims had no need to accept Christ by faith, yet now you seem to try to argue the opposite?

No, you're not reading carefully enough.

When someone who has never heard about the Christ and the gospel message responds in faith to that which has been revealed to them, that faith is the basis for their salvation. If they reject what God has shown them outside of the knowledge of Christ they are rejected.

How do you think God judged the people of Noah's day? They did not know about the Christ, but they heard the message about the coming judgment and did not respond in faith, so they were destroyed, while those who did respond in faith to this Christ-less message of judgment were saved.

So these high standards are only for those who have been washed in the Blood of Christ?

You are responsible for the knowledge and calling YOU have, not what someone else has:

"From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more." (Luke 12:48 NASB)

Judgment is mitigated on the basis of what you know.

But the unwashed are in no need of the Blood? Your doctrines are very inconsistent.

Faith is the consistent factor in what we've been sharing.

Only those who respond in faith leading to repentance, to whatever it is that has been revealed to them, they are the one's who find protection in God at the judgment. For us who know about Christ and the forgiveness of sins through his blood, our faith and repentance must be in accordance with that knowledge. For the people of Noah's day judgment was based on the knowledge that a flood was coming to judge the wickedness of the earth.

 

[francisdesales]

[George, you are the one telling me who God is going to save and who God is going to condemn. Get off your high horse. Clearly, you have no concept of the difference between "reject" and "not aware of", so this conversation is over your head.

Have a wonderful holiday basting in the freedom given to you by others while you condemn billions to hell because they had no way of knowing about Jesus of Nazareth... I place my faith in a different sort of God, Who is a God of Love and would not do such a thing.

No, I quoted the Word of God, your conflict is with what God has had written in plain and clear words.

I see you still cannot admit your error? "but this conversation is over my head"

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Yes, thanks again for proving my point. You still don't get that "reject" is not equal to "don't know about". Believes not = reject. How can you reject something you don't know about?

"Over your head". Yea, that describes it.

 

[smaller]

[George, you are the one telling me who God is going to save and who God is going to condemn. Get off your high horse. Clearly, you have no concept of the difference between "reject" and "not aware of", so this conversation is over your head.

Have a wonderful holiday basting in the freedom given to you by others while you condemn billions to hell because they had no way of knowing about Jesus of Nazareth... I place my faith in a different sort of God, Who is a God of Love and would not do such a thing.

No, I quoted the Word of God, your conflict is with what God has had written in plain and clear words.

I see you still cannot admit your error? "but this conversation is over my head"

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Yes, thanks again for proving my point. You still don't get that "reject" is not equal to "don't know about". Believes not = reject. How can you reject something you don't know about?

"Over your head". Yea, that describes it.

You see George, francisdesales above ^ exemplifies how some sect's see 'us' as believers who do not agree to any particular sect's demands in 'every way they demand' and then how they see an unbeliever.

An unbeliever doesn't know. They are termed 'ignorant.'

We who know and willingly, knowingly, openly disagree with some jots and tittles of some sect's endless litany of demands are factually considered official heretics by our so called 'fellow' believers and not 'ignorant unbelievers.'

LOL to those angles, I say.

Some of these sect's demand us to believe everything they claim is entirely without flaw. I say that is preposterous arrogant nonsense on the face of the claims.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you mention above is typical in the non-OSAS understandings in general. MOST of these 'groups' are harder on believers who do not belong to their particular 'sect' than they are to blinded unbelievers.

You mean like how Jesus was harder on the Pharisees than the common man?

I see your point.

In the non-OSAS crowd the unbeliever represents an opportunity to proselytize.

Like Jesus.

I see your point again.

They don't term a blinded person a heretic like they do believers who don't agree with them entirely.

Wow! Like Jesus again:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." (John 9:40 NIV)

It's such a weird double standard it is sometimes hard to even tolerate it.

Double standard? No. Two different standards based on accountability. Yes!


The blindness of choosing falsehood over truth is totally different than being born blind and having never seen the truth. The Pharisee is the one who closes his eyes, and covers his ears to the truth they have heard.