A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[atpollard]

More ad hominem with no answer or scripture.

Actually, it was an example of an unanswerable question. Not because the question has no answer ("I have never beat my wife") but because the way the question is constructed "Have you stopped beating your wife" makes assumptions (that I formerly beat my wife) which are invalid, rendering any answer to the question (YES or NO) equally false.

It was intended to illustrate that your question "Why would God need to Reform the doctrine of Christ?" is equally invalid because it makes invalid assumptions:

• God needs to reform the doctrine of Christ.
• The Doctrine of Christ needed reforming.
• The REFORMERS (whom you were actually attacking) were attempting to reform the doctrine of Christ.

As I explained (and you ignored), the Reformers were reforming the doctrines of the Church (which had drifted away from the doctrine of Christ) ... as far away as to sell 'indulgences' for the dead ... and reform Church doctrine back to the doctrines taught in the Word of God (Scripture, the Holy Bible). Thus your question, as asked, had no direct answer ... I could only answer by explaining the historic truth [which you made very clear you cared nothing about the truth, you just wanted to attack Reformed Theology for embracing what the Bible says.]

Like this:

John 6:44

• No one can come to Me [Total Inability of man to choose Christ]
• unless the Father who sent Me [Unconditional Election of God to 'show mercy on whom He will show mercy']
• draws him; [Irresistible Grace of God effectually draws man to salvation in the Son]
• and I will raise him up at the last day. [Preservation of Saints, by God, from Predestination through Glorification.]

 

[atpollard]

So you, like @atpollard, haven't the backbone to commit to your statements of resolution.

You are correct.
Placing you in IGNORE should help my weak resolve.
L8R ... well, actually NVR.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm going to avoid this Forum,

... and all God's people shouted "Amen"

 

[brightfame52]

Promoting a doctrine that transgresses the doctrine of Christ.

A doctrine that is against the teaching of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ

A doctrine that intends to divide the body of Christ.


Paul says it this way —


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13


Christians follow Christ; believe and practice His teachings.

Calvinist’s follow the teachings of Calvinism.


True teachers instruct people to follow Christ.





JLB

Mans total depravity is part of the Doctrine of Christ. Christ came to save ungodly sinners that couldnt do anything for themselves being dead in sin. Thats one of the reasons why man needs a Saviour, because he is totally depraved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mans total depravity is part of the Doctrine of Christ. Christ came to save ungodly sinners that couldnt do anything for themselves being dead in sin. Thats one of the reasons why man needs a Saviour, because he is totally depraved.

Could you please post where Jesus stated that man is so deprived that man is unable to come to Him?
Could you please state where Jesus said that He must die because we are so totally depraved?

Also, could you comment on the following verse?

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
And please don't make that silly remark about it being about universalism if true.
I don't care to discuss free will on here.

This would agree with:
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some questions you could answer:

1. Why pray for anyone IF God has already decided what to decree?
2. What does it mean to you that GOD DESIRES THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED and COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH?

If you think God has two wills, which is an interesting concept - apparently you don't know about Divine Simplicity - could you please explain the two wills?

It seems to me from the above that JESUS, PAUL AND GOD all agree that God desires that all men be saved.


Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

https://scontent.fiad1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/175934343_2486682311455514_4835974741172820315_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=nk8LCl0rdggAX9WJzy3&_nc_ht=scontent.fiad1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDy3m9-BZUgIKkuypus6tnRXyaT51wd_qvb4zSF0tFp3g&oe=646787A5

Typical of you Icon.

Never serious.
Do you have any idea of how many verses I've posted on this thread that never received a reply?
MANY!

And don't think for a minute that I'm going back to find them.
HOWEVER, from now on I'm making a list and will be requiring a reply from you.

 

[GodsGrace]

In all my theology books, written by men teachers that God has given to the church, they develop scripture and explain as the bible instructs should happen. people who are ignornant of good study material are clueless how many verses are used in these books.

People who are ignorant of scripture allow MEN to convince them of incorrect theology...
to the point of CHANGING THE NATURE OF GOD.

Incredible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you know that Jesus taught Reformed Theology?

Many here have pointed that out to you using Scripture, but you refuse to believe it.

You do not live by the teachings of Christ as you claim or you would understand the Doctrines of Grace that Christ and the entire Bible teach.

The DOCTRINES OF GRACE!

Newspeak!


Somebody stop me.

 

[GodsGrace]

No scripture again?

When are you going to adress the scriptures that I posted?

Again

Teachers are to teach men to follow Christ, by example.

Following (obeying) His doctrine is part of that mandate.

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Following (keeping) His commandments is also part of that mandate.

• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

“I know Him” is the biblically correct way of saying “I have eternal life”.


Having Christ is having eternal life; He is the life.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Hearing and following Him, because we know Him, because we have Him, because we are joined to Him as one spirit with Him, results in receiving eternal life at the end of the narrow road that “leads to life”, in which no one is able to snatch us out of His hand.



JLB

You haven't learned yet?

They never address scripture.
They like to throw insults instead.
It's how the reformed are.
They feel they are superior to every other Christian because they're able to accept a God that others cannot.

A God that doesn't exist BTW.

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

Could you please post where Jesus stated that man is so deprived that man is unable to come to Him?

No I cant provide that exact wording.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Post 715

I'm going to avoid this Forum,

Avoid defined:

1. To stay clear of; go around or away from.
2. To take measures so as not to meet or see (someone).
3. To prevent from happening.

Then you post 716, 717 making a lie of post 715
Then, true to character, you post in 725, 726, 727, 728, 729 and 730.

Why am I not surprised.

Also reported you to the forum staff for post 725 in which you say I am not a Christian.

You don't SEEM to be a disciple of Jesus...
Far from it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hey brightfame52 ... why do you allow wondering to TROLL us? See this thread posts 733, 725 (where she accuses me of not being a Christian) and #253 of this thread where I spent a long time documenting other maleficence.

Like, why are you allowing this to continue on and on and on ..???

It's one thing to disagree, it's another to tell lies ...like: Reform Theology say God is unjust ... .like, she's trolling us. Do something.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you might need to rewatch that video. God did NOT create Evil according to Sproul. The KJV has a clumsy translation of a Hebrew word that has a broad meaning from “food that tastes bad” at one extreme to “moral evil” at the other extreme and in that verse it is used as the opposite of “good fortune” as “darkness” is the opposite of “light”. EVIL is not the opposite of Good Fortune. Calamity or Bad Fortune is the opposite of Good Fortune. So God IS responsible for “good luck” and “bad luck”, but that is not the same as God created EVIL.

Just saw this.
I've watched the short version and the long version, which lasts an hour.
Sproul is very careful with his words. He had trouble understanding Calvinism but he was already in a reformed college and his mentor was reformed, so there you have it. If you've read one particular biography of his, he explains this. Reluctantly did he come to the reformed faith. I'm not sure reluctant is the correct word, maybe doubtfully at first would be more correct.

He's my favorite and I've listened to him a lot of YouTube.
All these men right up there in stature are very convincing IF ONE HAS NOT READ THE BIBLE FIRST.
It would be easy enough for any one of them to have convinced me, for instance.

If you notice, in the video, he kept saying: There is only one God.
God created the light and He created evil, calamity, call it what you will.
His point was THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING....
Everything.

Piper and MacArthur state exactly the same...
I posted them somewhere too...

THEOLOGY
IS FREE WILL BIBLICAL
GRUMIX8
POST NO. 357

They all say God created evil.
Maybe this is clearer:

 

[GodsGrace]

Post 715

Avoid defined:

1. To stay clear of; go around or away from.
2. To take measures so as not to meet or see (someone).
3. To prevent from happening.

Then you post 716, 717 making a lie of post 715
Then, true to character, you post in 725, 726, 727, 728, 729 and 730.

Why am I not surprised.

Also reported you to the forum staff for post 725 in which you say I am not a Christian.

Happy to hear about the report....
I was kind of hoping you would....

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it isn’t.
The quote I posted from Ligonier Ministries explained it and RC Sproul explained it in the video you posted.

1. To “order” or “ordain” is to control, which is not the same as creating. It was Joseph’s brothers that freely chose to hate him, attempt to kill him and ultimately sell Joseph into slavery. God allowed and controlled all of it to further God’s plan and purpose. God allowed them to hate Joseph, but not to KILL him. God controlled the sale of Joseph so that Joseph would go to Egypt. Without Joseph in Egypt, millions (including all of Israel) would have starved in the coming famine and without Egypt, the hatred between the children of 4 different mothers in the house of Jacob would never have been healed. However, GOD never forced anyone to do something evil. God merely permitted it. If you cannot see the difference, then I do not know how to make the difference any clearer.
2. God created EVERY “THING”. Evil is not a thing. Bring me a bushel of “evil”. Evil is “missing the mark”. Evil is a measure of how far a thing is from God’s perfection. God does not create how much something is NOT like Him. The analogy is “COLD” or “DARK”. Neither exist, they just represent the absence of HEAT or LIGHT (which do exist and can be measured. GOD is the measure of GOOD and evil is the description of that which deviates from GOD … the absence of GOD.

Atpollard,
I expect more from a rocket scientist! JK.

If God ORDERS OR ORDAINS something, you know He is sovereign and that is what's going to come about.
If God created everything, even the particles in the air, it means He created evil too, and I've posted enough proof that I should not be required to do it AGAIN.

Why can't the reformed believe what Calvin wrote and top theologians all affirm?

ALL Christians know that God ALLOWS,,,He is not going to step in and stop natural occurences from happening.
This is different than CREATING the occorences to happen, and all reformed should be agreed on the fact that God CAUSES everything to happen, including second causes.

As to evil not being a THING...
First of all this is a philosophical conclusion, which can be valid, but I and many others do not agree with it.
You may wish to understand it that way.

It does not detract from the fact that Sproul, Piper and MacArthur all agree that God created evil.

I tend to think they know their faith.
And they believe God created evil.

I'm not here to discuss what evil is.
Personally, I don't believe evil is the absence of something...
I believe it IS SOMETHING.

When Jesus exorcised persons, SOMETHING came out of them...
in one case it went into some pigs standing nearby.

 

[atpollard]

Could you please post where Jesus stated that man is so deprived that man is unable to come to Him?
Could you please state where Jesus said that He must die because we are so totally depraved?

Also, could you comment on the following verse?

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
And please don't make that silly remark about it being about universalism if true.
I don't care to discuss free will on here.

This would agree with:
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some questions you could answer:

1. Why pray for anyone IF God has already decided what to decree?
2. What does it mean to you that GOD DESIRES THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED and COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH?

If you think God has two wills, which is an interesting concept - apparently you don't know about Divine Simplicity - could you please explain the two wills?

That's a LOT of questions to pile into one POST. How about "Tit for Tat" ... I answer one then YOU answer one, then I answer the next, then YOU answer another ...

FIRST QUESTION: Could you please post where Jesus stated that man is so deprived that man is unable to come to Him?

SHORT ANSWER: John 6:43-44 "Jesus answered and said to them, 'Stop complaining among yourselves. No one can [unable] come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.' "

LONG ANSWER: from the Heidelberg Catechism (1563)

• Question 8. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any goodand inclined toward all evil?Answer. Yes,1 unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.2
  • 1. Genesis 6:5 [NRSV] The Lord saw that the wickedness of humans was great in the earth and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.
  • 1. Genesis 8:21 [NRSV] And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odor, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of humans, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
  • 1. Job 14:4 [NRSV] Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one can.
  • 1. Isaiah 53:6 [NRSV] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
  • 2. John 3:3-5 [NRSV] Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

and from the Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

• Chapter 9: Of Free Will, Paragraph 3.
• Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6
  • 4. Romans 5:6 [ESV] For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
  • 4. Romans 8:7 [ESV] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
  • 5. Ephesians 2:1,5 [ESV] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
  • 6. Titus 3:3-5 [ESV] For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
  • 6. John 6:44 [ESV] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

[I trust that I have answered your question with BOTH explanation and Scripture.]

MY QUESTION: Could you please post where Jesus stated that all men are able to come to Him without the supernatural work of God upon that person?

 

[atpollard]

When Jesus exorcised persons, SOMETHING came out of them...
in one case it went into some pigs standing nearby.

Someone ... a demon ... a fallen angel. God created everything, including angels. What God created was GOOD (very good, in some cases). Those beings that CHOSE to depart from God moved away from GOOD. What do we call something that moves away from HEAT, we call it COLD. There is no such thing as actual COLD. You cannot measure "degrees of cold".

Let's talk about Darkness and Light. If I had an entire stadium full of total absolute darkness (not one photon of light in the entire structure) and I lit a single birthday candle, then the sheer weight of so great a volume of darkness would crush the light from a small candle and extinguish it, right? WRONG! Darkness does not exists. It is merely the LACK of light, so it is only measured by comparison to the light from the birthday candle and is powerless compared to the candle.

Same with God and Good. Evil does not exist as an independent thing. Like COLD and DARK, it is merely a measure of how far you (a person or action) "misses the mark" set by God as the perfect yardstick for absolute goodness. The demons were beings created good that chose to depart from God's standard. To deliberately "miss the mark" by a LOT.

Just like Adam and Eve and just like us.
God created EVERYTHING and God did not create EVIL. NO "top theologians" affirms otherwise. You claimed that Sproul affirmed that God created Evil in that 9 minute video, but he affirmed the opposite. I will need a real quote that can be confirmed in context to support so anti-Biblical a claim. You cannot post a quote "God created everything" and throw up your arms in victory.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering



No I cant provide that exact wording.

It's just great that you make statements, and about JESUS no less, that you then cannot back up.
And, are you at all interested in overseeing this thread?
It seems to be slightly out of order, to say the least.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey brightfame52 ... why do you allow wondering to TROLL us? See this thread posts 733, 725 (where she accuses me of not being a Christian) and #253 of this thread where I spent a long time documenting other maleficence.

Like, why are you allowing this to continue on and on and on ..???

It's one thing to disagree, it's another to tell lies ...like: Reform Theology say God is unjust ... .like, she's trolling us. Do something.

Yes. I certainly hope he does!

 

[brightfame52]

It's just great that you make statements, and about JESUS no less, that you then cannot back up.
And, are you at all interested in overseeing this thread?
It seems to be slightly out of order, to say the least.

I dont need to find your exact wording in order to show the truthfulness of something scripture teaches, you are not the criteria.