A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[Iconoclast]

Just saw this.
I've watched the short version and the long version, which lasts an hour.
Sproul is very careful with his words. He had trouble understanding Calvinism but he was already in a reformed college and his mentor was reformed, so there you have it. If you've read one particular biography of his, he explains this. Reluctantly did he come to the reformed faith. I'm not sure reluctant is the correct word, maybe doubtfully at first would be more correct.

He's my favorite and I've listened to him a lot of YouTube.
All these men right up there in stature are very convincing IF ONE HAS NOT READ THE BIBLE FIRST.
It would be easy enough for any one of them to have convinced me, for instance.

If you notice, in the video, he kept saying: There is only one God.
God created the light and He created evil, calamity, call it what you will.
His point was THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING....
Everything.

Piper and MacArthur state exactly the same...
I posted them somewhere too...

THEOLOGY
IS FREE WILL BIBLICAL
GRUMIX8
POST NO. 357

They all say God created evil.
Maybe this is clearer:

So...your theological error now makes you see the righteous Judgement of God as evil?

 

[GodsGrace]

So...your theological error now makes you see the righteous Judgement of God as evil?

I don't know what you're talking about.
YOUR theology says God created evil.
My theology says God is all good, merciful and just.

No further comment.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow.
For somebody that is always accusing me of not using scripture, you sure are making it difficult for JLB .

I posted 3 verses. He was too lazy to look them up. His problem, not mine.

Which proves my point that you dont really want to DISCUSS scripture.

You do not have a point W. You want to attack, not "discuss". Truth is not up for grabs.
You come against it, we will come against your mistaken posts.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't know what you're talking about.

Was the flood evil?

YOUR theology says God created evil.
My theology says God is all good, merciful and just.

Your pick and choose theology does not speak about the true and living God.

No further comment.

okay, you have not really said anything in awhile, just foolish attack posts.

 

[JLB]

I have posted scripture by which I make my claim. You obviously reject it.

You may have posted some scripture, but you have never once posted any scripture that teaches or mentions Total Depravity.


Total Depravity is a man man term to try and validate a man made doctrine.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


God loves and desires the world to be saved, because they are lost, and it’s clearly His will that not any should perish but all come to repentance.

Each person must hear and believe in order to be saved.

In your mind, world = elect.


World refers to those who are not saved and are under the control of the wicked one.

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:19





JLB

 

[JLB]

I posted 3 verses. He was too lazy to look them up. His problem, not mine.

You do not have a point W. You want to attack, not "discuss". Truth is not up for grabs.
You come against it, we will come against your mistaken posts.

You have posted nothing in response to my scriptures or questions.



JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Please provide a scripture from the New Testament that says…
Calvinism is also known as the doctrine of Christ.

You do not define the "doctrine of Christ". When we look what was Jesus doctrine, it is Calvinism.
You can see all of it in the gospel of John. Well maybe you cannot see it but most Christians have already seen it there.

Those who transgress, who leave and do not remain in the doctrine of Christ, do not have Christ any longer.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

Quoting verses with no explanation suggests you do not know what you are talking about.

Paul says it this way —

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

You do not begin to understand what these verses were teaching.

Calvinism, OSAS teaches people they can live a life of sin, practicing the works of the flesh and never become lost.

Calvinism does not teach OSAS. Once again you and the others do not know what you are talking about. How foolish!

Ths is a doctrine of demons, and causes people to depart from the faith, thinking that once they are saved they are always saved; that they have been elected to eternal salvation.

Foolish posting and a falsehood, by those who do not know what they are talking about.

Here is who scripture teaches us who will receive eternal salvation in the end —

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

The only ones who obey are the elect.

JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

YOUR theology says God created evil.

... your theology says you drink the real blood and eat Christ's body. Idol worship (i.e. the Mass) is the epitome of evil. Your theology has you praying to the saints and Mary: Like all prayers to Saints, our prayers to Virgin Mary rely on the Saints' special power to intercede for us before Christ and the Father. But since Mary has a unique role in salvation, and a unique relationship to the Trinity, our prayers to the Blessed Virgin also rely on her special power of intercession.

Galatians warns us of "another gospel". Yours is a gospel of works, not based on the Bible, but the traditions of man.
3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].

 

[atpollard]

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15

Just like Joshua we all must choose to serve (obey) the Lord or not.

Joshua made the right choice.


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Abraham had to make the difficult choice to obey or not when God spoke to him to get out from his family and go to a land that he did not know.


That is what “by faith” means: someone heard God, received faith and chose to do what God said.


Noah chose to obey and build the Ark.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


Only those who choose to obey will receive eternal salvation.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9







JLB

wondering says you are scripturally knowledgeable. [shrug] I have mixed personal feelings (you often seem to go out of your way to avoid the point that was being made). However, giving the benefit of the doubt, my question was a subtle one.

Of course everyone SHOULD obey God.
Of course everyone that GOD SAVES will obey God.

The question is, does God require human obedience/choice as a prerequisite to ENABLE God to save? In other words, is God INCAPABLE of saving without our choice? (Even if it is only because GOD has self-limited and WILL NOT SAVE unless we first choose).

Can you understand the question and see the difference between what I am asking and the far simpler “should people obey God”?

 

[atpollard]

Are you going to reply to my post?

You are going to have to be more specific.
At this point I can’t even keep count.

 

[atpollard]

You may have posted some scripture, but you have never once posted any scripture that teaches or mentions Total Depravity.

I did … but it is likely long buried by now.

EDIT: Found it … post 736.

 

[atpollard]

I'm interested in what the bible states.

Then let’s read Romans 9 and see the RIGHTS of a Sovereign God, then head to Ephesians 2 and see how a Sovereign God exercises those rights over people that are dead in sin.
Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[Iconoclast]

People who are ignorant of scripture allow MEN to convince them of incorrect theology...

Every Cal on here eats your lunch theologically.
The training they get from the reformed teachers allows them to see through your falsehoods at a glance.

to the point of CHANGING THE NATURE OF GOD.

Not at all. We just to not blame God for mans sin, or ascribe any evil, or sin to God as you do.

Incredible.

reformed Theology being Christ centered is incredible.

 

[Iconoclast]

Could you please post where Jesus stated that man is so deprived that man is unable to come to Him?
Could you please state where Jesus said that He must die because we are so totally depraved?

Also, could you comment on the following verse?

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
And please don't make that silly remark about it being about universalism if true.
I don't care to discuss free will on here.

This would agree with:
1 Timothy 2:1-4
1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some questions you could answer:

1. Why pray for anyone IF God has already decided what to decree?
2. What does it mean to you that GOD DESIRES THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED and COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH?

If you think God has two wills, which is an interesting concept - apparently you don't know about Divine Simplicity - could you please explain the two wills?

It seems to me from the above that JESUS, PAUL AND GOD all agree that God desires that all men be saved.


Thanks.

All of these questions have been answered in detail over and over. It has become obvious you are not looking for an answer.

 

[Hopeful]

The question is, does God require human obedience/choice as a prerequisite to ENABLE God to save?

"Enable"?
No, as God can do anything.
But He has posted the rules, keys to the kingdom of heaven, and they include love/obedience to Him.

In other words, is God INCAPABLE of saving without our choice? (Even if it is only because GOD has self-limited and WILL NOT SAVE unless we first choose).

Yes.
He will not "save" those who hate Him.

Can you understand the question and see the difference between what I am asking and the far simpler “should people obey God”?

 

[brightfame52]

You may have posted some scripture, but you have never once posted any scripture that teaches or mentions Total Depravity.


Total Depravity is a man man term to try and validate a man made doctrine.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


God loves and desires the world to be saved, because they are lost, and it’s clearly His will that not any should perish but all come to repentance.

Each person must hear and believe in order to be saved.

In your mind, world = elect.


World refers to those who are not saved and are under the control of the wicked one.

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 1 John 5:19





JLB

Right I posted scripture that shows the total depravity of man by nature. Paul shows that Rom 1 and 3 in particular and other places.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are going to have to be more specific.
At this point I can’t even keep count.

It's no wonder.

My post no. 747....
It does require a response - if you so wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52

It would be courteous to get a reply from two of my posts to you:

No. 725
No. 749

Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

He will not "save" those who hate Him.

Paul teaches exactly the opposite in this paragraph …

Ephesians 2:1-5 [CSB]
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you previously lived according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit now working in the disobedient. We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of his great love that he had for us, made us alive with Christ even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

• Saving those that hate Him is EXACTLY what God did.

Sola Gracia!

 

[GodsGrace]

... your theology says you drink the real blood and eat Christ's body. Idol worship (i.e. the Mass) is the epitome of evil. Your theology has you praying to the saints and Mary: Like all prayers to Saints, our prayers to Virgin Mary rely on the Saints' special power to intercede for us before Christ and the Father. But since Mary has a unique role in salvation, and a unique relationship to the Trinity, our prayers to the Blessed Virgin also rely on her special power of intercession.

Galatians warns us of "another gospel". Yours is a gospel of works, not based on the Bible, but the traditions of man.
3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be [a]justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing].

You sure do hate Catholics.
Hate is like Murder.

Matthew 5:21-22
21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;


This is how I feel about the reformed:
They SAY they follow the bible...
but it seems to me that they get more upset if you dispute their theology than either the bible or God.