A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[brightfame52]

I don't have OPINIONS when it comes to men's salvation.
I quote scripture.

You will not compare the two verses will you?
It seems to be a conflict you cannot reconcile by using your belief paradigm.
That's because your beliefs are not in agreement with God's word.

If you think they are, maybe you could show this?
By using scripture, of course.

Sure you have an opinion, everyone has an opinion about things.

 

[Fastfredy0]

FOR GOD......who did the action
SO LOVED THE WORLD.....for whom was the action taken
THAT HE GAVE....God gifted something to us, His creation
HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON....A part of Himself, a unique Son, that would be one of many
THAT WHOSOEVER...and who has access to this free gift? Anyone that wants it.
BELIEVETH....It's necessary to take an action to be part of the New Covenant
WILL NOT PERISH....God always keeps His promises
BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE....Here's the gift. Those that believe in Jesus will have this free gift.

Now, now Wondering ... you don't believe one is saved by Faith in Christ alone. Your Roman Catholic Church teaches works salvation which Gal. 5:2-6 says salvation by faith void.

Roman Catholic Theology teaches:
To be saved, a person must:

1. receive Christ as Savior by faith, (John 3:16)

AND ..

1. be baptized in the Trinitarian formula,
2. be infused with additional grace by observing the Catholic sacraments, especially the Eucharist,
3. and then die without any unconfessed mortal sins.

If one accomplishes the above, he or she will be saved and granted entrance into heaven, likely after an extensive time of further cleansing in purgatory. Give your verses for those beliefs ....

The Roman Catholic process is significantly different from the apostle Paul’s teaching on how salvation is received: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
Simply put, the Catholic teaching on salvation is very different from what the Bible teaches.

Are Catholics saved? Do Catholics go to heaven? It depends. If the question is “are there saved Catholics?” then the answer is “yes.” If the question is “will a person go to heaven if he or she holds to the official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation?” the answer is “no.”

Are Catholics saved? | GotQuestions.org

Are Catholics saved? Do Catholics go to heaven? If a person adheres to Roman Catholic beliefs and practices, is he/she saved?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[GodsGrace]

That one verse is enough. None seek after God, thats by nature.

OK

 

[GodsGrace]

Now, now Wondering ... you don't believe one is saved by Faith in Christ alone. Your Roman Catholic Church teaches works salvation which Gal. 5:2-6 says salvation by faith void.

Roman Catholic Theology teaches:
To be saved, a person must:

1. receive Christ as Savior by faith, (John 3:16)

AND ..

1. be baptized in the Trinitarian formula,
2. be infused with additional grace by observing the Catholic sacraments, especially the Eucharist,
3. and then die without any unconfessed mortal sins.

If one accomplishes the above, he or she will be saved and granted entrance into heaven, likely after an extensive time of further cleansing in purgatory. Give your verses for those beliefs ....

The Roman Catholic process is significantly different from the apostle Paul’s teaching on how salvation is received: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
Simply put, the Catholic teaching on salvation is very different from what the Bible teaches.

Are Catholics saved? Do Catholics go to heaven? It depends. If the question is “are there saved Catholics?” then the answer is “yes.” If the question is “will a person go to heaven if he or she holds to the official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation?” the answer is “no.”

Are Catholics saved? | GotQuestions.org

Are Catholics saved? Do Catholics go to heaven? If a person adheres to Roman Catholic beliefs and practices, is he/she saved?

www.gotquestions.org

Have you not noticed yet that I don't reply to your posts?
Maybe some day you will.

 

[atpollard]

Did you read post no. 1065? (mine).
Does it mean anything to you?

I read it ... it means that you ignored the verses that I presented and responded with verses that you liked to think prove "Taint so". Should we sharpie out all of the verses that I quoted that directly contradict your opinions (the non-scripture part of your post)?

I will address your specific comments as time permits ... supper time here.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read it ... it means that you ignored the verses that I presented and responded with verses that you liked to think prove "Taint so". Should we sharpie out all of the verses that I quoted that directly contradict your opinions (the non-scripture part of your post)?

I will address your specific comments as time permits ... supper time here.

It would be interesting to get a good answer on why the reformed believe persons are UNABLE to seek God,
when tens of posts could be found that state that we CAN seek God and that God wants this and that He replies to this.

Please remember that it is always God that makes the first step.

I asked BF to find out what Romans 3:11 means since he treats it like it's the only verse in the bible,
another member was nice enough to let him know what it means.
See post no. 1074 and also 1073 and 1072.

Didn't I reply to 1065?
Sleepy time here....
Tomorrow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God ... until and unless God draws them.

• John 6:65 [NLT] Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
• Romans 9:6 [NLT] So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
• Ephesians 2:8-10 [NLT] God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

I answered the above by showing that your entire premise in not what I, and other Christians, believe to be true.
I'm not playing verse pong - I don't like that.

I agree with Eph 2:8-10

Romans 9:6 God will show mercy to whomever He pleases: Jew or Gentile

John 6:55 I do believe I posted John 6:44 and John 12:32 and attempted to show the explanation for John 6:65.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Have you not noticed yet that I don't reply to your posts?
Maybe some day you will.

Don't need your reply. Just wanted to point out to others your theology that you try to keep secret as you can't biblically defend ... Example: things like praying to Mary and worshiping turning bread and water into pieces of God.

Why don't you tell us more about your beliefs?

 

[atpollard]

It would be interesting to get a good answer on why the reformed believe persons are UNABLE to seek God

Because John 6 says they cannot and Romans 3 says that they do not. (It really was not that complicated.)

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,
I firmly believe that we are not to swallow everything that is taught to us.
We should be like the Bareans in Acts 17 (I think).
We are to study and check for ourselves everything that we are taught.
I had to leave a denomination...it's not a pleasant thing to do.
But we must go where the truth leads us....

If every other verses says we are to seek God and are ABLE to seek God,,,
then a person must find out, for himself, what Romans 3:11 means.

Which is exactly what you've stated.
You've saved BF some homework!

Do you keep biblegateway.com on a tab for quick access to verses?
The word "Bereans" wasn't listed in the bible, just the place name.
I had to look for "Berea" to find it in Acts 17:10,13.

 

[Hopeful]

That one verse is enough. None seek after God, thats by nature.

Can you tell us what does your interpretation profit anyone?
If nobody can seek God, nobody will find God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't need your reply. Just wanted to point out to others your theology that you try to keep secret as you can't biblically defend ... Example: things like praying to Mary and worshiping turning bread and water into pieces of God.

Why don't you tell us more about your beliefs?

You think others care what denomination I belong to, if any?

You're really thick.
I know about calvinism.
Am I a calvinist?

I don't think so.

 

[brightfame52]

Because John 6 says they cannot and Romans 3 says that they do not. (It really was not that complicated.)

Thats why I said or I believe I said, when scripture says they do not it equates to they cannot.

The unregenerate sinner will not come to Christ Jn 5:38-40

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

because Jesus went on to say they cannot come Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So our unwillingness to believe in Christ by nature is due to our inability to believe.

And understand, to believe in Christ, the True Christ isnt believing in the false christ that died for everyone in the world to make salvation possible if you only do this or that, but in that Christ who specifically came to die for and save His Sheep from their sins, and did accomplish that. Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Now all His Sheep that He died in the stead of, are legally saved from their sins, period ! Its finished, and in their lifetime the Spirit is dispatched to apply their Salvation in the New Birth, and then lead them into the Truth of the Gospel of their Salvation !

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you keep biblegateway.com on a tab for quick access to verses?
The word "Bereans" wasn't listed in the bible, just the place name.
I had to look for "Berea" to find it in Acts 17:10,13.

No I don't. I use biblehub.
When I first joined this forum I used to TYPE OUT the verses because I didn't know about these helps!!
I just happened upon one called BIBLEREF yesterday. It looked interesting so I'll have to take the time to check it out.
It had the verse and supporting verses, that could come in handy at times.

Biblehub also has commentaries , which I do use rarely.
And as to keeping a tab....
absolutely not!
I keep my computer closed as much as possible.
I had a ransomware attack a few years ago and it's not pleasant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thats why I said or I believe I said, when scripture says they do not it equates to they cannot.

The unregenerate sinner will not come to Christ Jn 5:38-40

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

because Jesus went on to say they cannot come Jn 6:44,65

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

So our unwillingness to believe in Christ by nature is due to our inability to believe.

And understand, to believe in Christ, the True Christ isnt believing in the false christ that died for everyone in the world to make salvation possible if you only do this or that, but in that Christ who specifically came to die for and save His Sheep from their sins, and did accomplish that. Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jn 19:30

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Now all His Sheep that He died in the stead of, are legally saved from their sins, period ! Its finished, and in their lifetime the Spirit is dispatched to apply their Salvation in the New Birth, and then lead them into the Truth of the Gospel of their Salvation !

Know what's interesting BF?

The above proves that we have free will.
Notice that in verse 40 Jesus states that YOU ARE UNWILLING TO COME TO ME.
Willingness denotes free will.

Also, He states that in verse 40 and then something different in verse 44.

Again, there must be another way to reconcile those two verses.
Maybe atpollard will do it since he's able to reply to posts - I don't understand why YOU don't.

 

[atpollard]

Do you keep biblegateway.com on a tab for quick access to verses?
The word "Bereans" wasn't listed in the bible, just the place name.
I had to look for "Berea" to find it in Acts 17:10,13.

That depends on your specific translation.

Act 17:11

• [NIV] Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
• [NLT] And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

But most translations require the CONTEXT to understand the message ...

• Act 17:10-15 [KJV] 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. 13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people. 14 And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still. 15 And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.
  • A contrast between the people of Berea (Bereans) and the people of Thessalonica (Thessalonicans).

 

[atpollard]

Willingness denotes free will.

Or "unwillingness" denotes a "Fallen Will" ... one that "cannot" understand or believe and "will not" obey or submit. Like it says in John 3:18-20 [NLT] “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed." or Romans 1:18-23 [NLT] "But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles."

 

[Fastfredy0]

Post 1084 written to me

Have you not noticed yet that I don't reply to your posts?

Post 1092 written to me

You're really thick.
I know about calvinism.
Am I a calvinist?

You constantly say one thing and then do the opposite. How can we believe what you say given this lack of truthfulness?

... anyways, I think it important to point out your Roman Catholic roots so others will know you are not being open about your opinions; otherwise, you would state your R.C. theology rather than act exclusively as a troll.

Yours is a WORKS SALVATION where authority lies in the TRADITION of the R.C.Church which dictate biblical interpretation and adds to it things like a sinless mother Mary.
Salvation in Roman Catholicism is a process. To begin, God grants actual grace to a person which enables him to believe in Christ (CCC 2000) and also believe in the truth of the Catholic Church (CCC 1814). After belief, the person must be baptized, which is necessary for salvation (CCC 1257). This baptism erases original sin (CCC 405), unites the person with Christ (CCC 977), infuses grace into the person (CCC 1999), and grants justification (CCC 1992, 2020). After baptism, he is saved. But, to maintain his salvation, it is necessary for him to perform good works (CCC 2010, 2068, 2080) and participate in the sacraments (CCC 1129) which provide the grace that is “proper to each sacrament” (CCC 1129, 2003). This is necessary in order to maintain infused grace (CCC 987, 1468). However, grace can be lessened by venial sins or completely lost by mortal sins. Venial sins (CCC 1862) remove part of the infused grace but not the saving grace known as sanctifying grace (CCC 1863). To remedy the problem of venial sins, the Catholic is to take the Eucharist which the Church teaches forgives venial sins (CCC 1416). yahda, yahda https://carm.org/roman-catholicism/summary-of-process-of-salvation-in-roman-catholicism/

 

[GodsGrace]

Post 1084 written to me


Post 1092 written to me


You constantly say one thing and then do the opposite. How can we believe what you say given this lack of truthfulness?

... anyways, I think it important to point out your Roman Catholic roots so others will know you are not being open about your opinions; otherwise, you would state your R.C. theology rather than act exclusively as a troll.

Yours is a WORKS SALVATION where authority lies in the TRADITION of the R.C.Church which dictate biblical interpretation and adds to it things like a sinless mother Mary.
Salvation in Roman Catholicism is a process. To begin, God grants actual grace to a person which enables him to believe in Christ (CCC 2000) and also believe in the truth of the Catholic Church (CCC 1814). After belief, the person must be baptized, which is necessary for salvation (CCC 1257). This baptism erases original sin (CCC 405), unites the person with Christ (CCC 977), infuses grace into the person (CCC 1999), and grants justification (CCC 1992, 2020). After baptism, he is saved. But, to maintain his salvation, it is necessary for him to perform good works (CCC 2010, 2068, 2080) and participate in the sacraments (CCC 1129) which provide the grace that is “proper to each sacrament” (CCC 1129, 2003). This is necessary in order to maintain infused grace (CCC 987, 1468). However, grace can be lessened by venial sins or completely lost by mortal sins. Venial sins (CCC 1862) remove part of the infused grace but not the saving grace known as sanctifying grace (CCC 1863). To remedy the problem of venial sins, the Catholic is to take the Eucharist which the Church teaches forgives venial sins (CCC 1416). yahda, yahda https://carm.org/roman-catholicism/summary-of-process-of-salvation-in-roman-catholicism/

Wow.
THICK is not the word.

 

[brightfame52]

Or "unwillingness" denotes a "Fallen Will" ... one that "cannot" understand or believe and "will not" obey or submit. Like it says in John 3:18-20 [NLT] “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed." or Romans 1:18-23 [NLT] "But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles."

The fallen natural man Jesus says that he loves darkness rather than light, so he cant change his natural will and make Jesus a liar, Jesus knows whats in all men Jn 3:19

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jesus uses the indicative mood for Loved, meaning its a stated fact. Evil here isnt merely immorality and stuff like that, but it includes religiosity, mans religions outside of Christ is darkness and evil, no matter how sincere.