A discussion on TOTAL DEPRAVITY

[JLB]

I believe I have given you scripture on plenty of occasions.

Can you please give a scripture where the phrase "Total Depravity" is found?

If you can't the the term "Total Depravity" is what we call an unscriptural term; not being from scripture.



JLB

 

[JLB]

All men are sinners and dead to God in the spiritual sense, do you believe that ?

I believe we are (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins, until we are born again.

They way we become born again is by hearing and believing the gospel message of salvation (the truth).

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Whoever = Whoever means whoever. Whoever is not confined or restrained to a special designated group.


Believes = willfully commit, trust and obey; Believe and obey are interchangeable



Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:3-16






JLB

 

[atpollard]

However, in reformed theology Total Depravity is the teaching that man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God.

Man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God ... until and unless God draws them.

• John 6:65 [NLT] Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
• Romans 9:6 [NLT] So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
• Ephesians 2:8-10 [NLT] God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe we are (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins, until we are born again.

They way we become born again is by hearing and believing the gospel message of salvation (the truth).

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Whoever = Whoever means whoever. Whoever is not confined or restrained to a special designated group.


Believes = willfully commit, trust and obey; Believe and obey are interchangeable



Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:3-16






JLB

Right, a person is totally depraved until they are born again or made a new creature.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man is so depraved that he is unable to reach out for God, or seek God ... until and unless God draws them.

• John 6:65 [NLT] Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
• Romans 9:6 [NLT] So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
• Ephesians 2:8-10 [NLT] God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

Here are the problems in our two belief systems - which is why we keep going around in circles:

The bible teaches that God reaches out to all:
He is waiting until everyone that He KNOWS will be saved, will be saved:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.


God wishes that all men be saved, but not all men will choose Him.
Not because He is a weak God, but because not all men will believe in Him through their own free will.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Isaiah 45:22
“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

John 5:34
33“You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth.
34“But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.


And, the bible teaches that we ARE able to seek God:

​

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who seek him.​

1 Chronicles 16:11​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 12:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

may live; and so the Lord, the God of hosts, will be with you, as you have said.​

So where's the problem?
Man is not totally depraved....
He is born with the sin nature and tends toward sin.
He is not so depraved as to be unable to seek God.

Either the above verses are true,
or reformed theology is true.

They both cannot be true.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ sdeclared the total inability of man by nature to come to Him, meaning to truly believe in Him, only if the Father draws them which speaks of the New Birth Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The words " no man can come" speaks of ability, or non ability. Hence None seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christ sdeclared the total inability of man by nature to come to Him, meaning to truly believe in Him, only if the Father draws them which speaks of the New Birth Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The words " no man can come" speaks of ability, or non ability. Hence None seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Did you read post no. 1065? (mine).
Does it mean anything to you?
How do you reconcile what I wrote and what you believe?
Why do you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over ad nauseam?

THE FATHER DRAWS EVERYONE.
Read Romans 1:19-20
GOD has been drawing EVERYONE from the beginning of time.

Reconcile John 6:44 and John 12:32, if you can.


Did you happen to notice ALL THE VERSES that state PLAINLY that God WANTS us to seek Him and that we ARE TO SEEK HIM, and that we are ABLE to seek Him?

 

[brightfame52]

Did you read post no. 1065? (mine).
Does it mean anything to you?
How do you reconcile what I wrote and what you believe?
Why do you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over ad nauseam?

THE FATHER DRAWS EVERYONE.
Read Romans 1:19-20
GOD has been drawing EVERYONE from the beginning of time.

Reconcile John 6:44 and John 12:32, if you can.


Did you happen to notice ALL THE VERSES that state PLAINLY that God WANTS us to seek Him and that we ARE TO SEEK HIM, and that we are ABLE to seek Him?

I read your post. Doesnt change anything.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read your post. Doesnt change anything.

Don't you see a conflict between what you believe and what the bible states?

Do you believe the Confessions and/or Calvinism
OR
Do you believe the bible??

 

[brightfame52]

Can you please give a scripture where the phrase "Total Depravity" is found?

If you can't the the term "Total Depravity" is what we call an unscriptural term; not being from scripture.



JLB

A scripture that says the phrase total depravity doesnt need to exist, as long as the truth of it is in scripture. Like the Trinity, that phrase isnt in scripture, yet the Truth of it is. You are a phrase searcher, thats not how scripture truth is arrived at. God has designed it to compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor 2:13

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Thats why its imperative to have the Spirit to understand scripture, for most truth isnt just black and white phrases

 

[brightfame52]

Don't you see a conflict between what you believe and what the bible states?

Do you believe the Confessions and/or Calvinism
OR
Do you believe the bible??

No I dont see no conflict, except what you said and what scripture said.

You say everyone can seek God, scripture says none seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[GodsGrace]

A scripture that says the phrase total depravity doesnt need to exist, as long as the truth of it is in scripture. Like the Trinity, that phrase isnt in scripture, yet the Truth of it is. You are a phrase searcher, thats not how scripture truth is arrived at. God has designed it to compare scripture with scripture 1 Cor 2:13

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Thats why its imperative to have the Spirit to understand scripture, for most truth isnt just black and white phrases

The above is to JLB BF
I find it amusing because you're telling HIM to do something that YOU don't do.
(compare scripture with scripture).

Would you like to compare
John 6:44 with
John 12:32 ?


John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Looks like a real conflict...

Does the Father draw
or does the Son draw?

 

[GodsGrace]

No I dont see no conflict, except what you said and what scripture said.

You say everyone can seek God, scripture says none seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

You know BF, Romans 3:11 isn't the only verse in the bible.

I posted about 6 or 7 and I have about another 20 if you really need them.

Another conflict....
How to resolve?

Maybe Romans 3:11 means something different?
Maybe we should be checking out what it refers to?
I've done my homework - have you done yours?

 

[Hopeful]

No I dont see no conflict, except what you said and what scripture said.

You say everyone can seek God, scripture says none seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul's use of the OT verses in Rom. 3 was an attempt to get the Jews to see that even with the Law they still needed a Savior.
What Paul cited was from Psalm 14, and addressed "the fool".
"There are no fools who seek after God" !!!

 

[brightfame52]

The above is to JLB BF
I find it amusing because you're telling HIM to do something that YOU don't do.
(compare scripture with scripture).

Would you like to compare
John 6:44 with
John 12:32 ?


John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Looks like a real conflict...

Does the Father draw
or does the Son draw?

I dont do ? You entitled to your opinion, yet I dont agree.

 

[brightfame52]

You know BF, Romans 3:11 isn't the only verse in the bible.

I posted about 6 or 7 and I have about another 20 if you really need them.

Another conflict....
How to resolve?

Maybe Romans 3:11 means something different?
Maybe we should be checking out what it refers to?
I've done my homework - have you done yours?

Rom 3:11 isnt the only verse, but it is a verse that establishes a Truth, none seek after God, by nature. Nothing can chage that, sorry

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul's use of the OT verses in Rom. 3 was an attempt to get the Jews to see that even with the Law they still needed a Savior.
What Paul cited was from Psalm 14, and addressed "the fool".
"There are no fools who seek after God" !!!

Hopeful,
I firmly believe that we are not to swallow everything that is taught to us.
We should be like the Bareans in Acts 17 (I think).
We are to study and check for ourselves everything that we are taught.
I had to leave a denomination...it's not a pleasant thing to do.
But we must go where the truth leads us....

If every other verses says we are to seek God and are ABLE to seek God,,,
then a person must find out, for himself, what Romans 3:11 means.

Which is exactly what you've stated.
You've saved BF some homework!

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 3:11 isnt the only verse, but it is a verse that establishes a Truth, none seek after God, by nature. Nothing can chage that, sorry

Give us some more verses that state we are unable to seek after God.
I mean, really BF, isn't the whole reason Jesus came to us was to redeem us and save all those that
WANT to be saved?

If God does the predestinating, what's the use of sacrificing Jesus?
There is none.

John 3:16 the best verse in the whole NT, maybe the entire bible.

FOR GOD......who did the action
SO LOVED THE WORLD.....for whom was the action taken
THAT HE GAVE....God gifted something to us, His creation
HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON....A part of Himself, a unique Son, that would be one of many
THAT WHOSOEVER...and who has access to this free gift? Anyone that wants it.
BELIEVETH....It's necessary to take an action to be part of the New Covenant
WILL NOT PERISH....God always keeps His promises
BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE....Here's the gift. Those that believe in Jesus will have this free gift.

 

[GodsGrace]

I dont do ? You entitled to your opinion, yet I dont agree.

I don't have OPINIONS when it comes to men's salvation.
I quote scripture.

You will not compare the two verses will you?
It seems to be a conflict you cannot reconcile by using your belief paradigm.
That's because your beliefs are not in agreement with God's word.

If you think they are, maybe you could show this?
By using scripture, of course.

 

[brightfame52]

Give us some more verses that state we are unable to seek after God.
I mean, really BF, isn't the whole reason Jesus came to us was to redeem us and save all those that
WANT to be saved?

If God does the predestinating, what's the use of sacrificing Jesus?
There is none.

John 3:16 the best verse in the whole NT, maybe the entire bible.

FOR GOD......who did the action
SO LOVED THE WORLD.....for whom was the action taken
THAT HE GAVE....God gifted something to us, His creation
HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON....A part of Himself, a unique Son, that would be one of many
THAT WHOSOEVER...and who has access to this free gift? Anyone that wants it.
BELIEVETH....It's necessary to take an action to be part of the New Covenant
WILL NOT PERISH....God always keeps His promises
BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE....Here's the gift. Those that believe in Jesus will have this free gift.

That one verse is enough. None seek after God, thats by nature.