A Theological and Exegetical Examination of Holy Spirit Baptism

Yes, Ezra, we do receive the Holy Spirit at the new birth of Jn.3:5 (which is the same subject of Acts 2:38), but such is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
cyberjosh said:
Unfortunately here is where we begin to get into interpretational differences. Firstly, since Scripture is good commentary on itsef, we know from other Scriptures that the word baptism is not always used of a literal immersion and also not always in water, so you cannot unqualifiedly try to associate the singular use of the word 'baptize' 1 Corinthians 12:13 with water baptism without good reason. For example "fire" is one other thing promised for a figurative immersion or baptism into, and obviously 'Spirit' was the other figurative substance into which one can be immersed (Matthew 3:11). From baptizo's root word bapto we also see that it has the general connotation 'dip', such as when Jesus dipped (bapto) his bread into the dish at the Last Supper (John 13:26). 1 Corinthians 12:13 very obviously describes a spiritual action of union (immersion) into the body of Christ by the (means or medium of the) Spirit, and a parallel passage in 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 with similar wording shows this:

"All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

Compare 1 Corinthians 12:13:

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

The "baptized into" terminology is figurative in both passages (the first essentially meaning "united together unto Moses" and the second "united together unto the body [of Christ]"), and also the "drink" is spiritual in both cases, not describing literal water.
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Proper exegesis requires a word be understood by its primary, literal meaing unless the context shows the word to be used in some other figurative way.

In Jn 3:5 water means literal water just as spirit means literal spirit for nothing in the context has water or spirit mean anything figurative.

In 1 Cor 12:13 baptized from baptizo means a literal immersion. Nothing in the context shows it to maean anything other than its literal meaning.

Since both Jn 3:5 and 1 Cor 12:13 refer to the one new birth they MUST express the same idea:

Jn 3:5----------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13------------Spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body


We have literal water and a literal baptized i.e., a literal immersion in water. If anyone can take 'water' and 'baptized' from these two verses and make them mean something other than their primary, literal meaning, then anyone can take any word(s) from the bible and define those words anyway they so choose and we have a situation where words no longer have any meanings.


1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul WATER IMMERSED some of the Corinthians himself and this water immersion is the one baptism of Eph 4:5. Also there is no verse that promised the Corinthians baptism with the Holy Spirit. No verse says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins. From 1 Cor 6:11 we see that the Crointhinas had been 'washed' which is another reference to their having been water immersed. Coffman Commentary makes note of the verb 'washed':

(1) There is the use of "the middle voice for WASHED, as in Acts 22:16, carrying the meaning of `you had yourselves washed.'" F22 (2) There is the appearance in the verse itself of the trinitarian formula for the administration of baptism. As Guthrie noted:


"In the name of ... Christ ... Spirit ... God ..." Note the unconscious Trinitarianism. The words may recall the actual formula used in baptism and the complementary baptism of the Spirit ... There is a reference here to the external and internal essential of baptism. F23
​
Justification has reference to the status of the believer "in Christ" who by virtue of his identity with the Saviour does not deserve any punishment whatever; it is a total and complete justification bestowed upon the believer when he is baptized "into Christ."


Water baptism was commanded while baptism with the Holy Spirit was only a promise. Since water baptism was commanded it can be obeyed and when one obeys by submitting himself to water baptism he then had himself washed, water baptism is soemthing he chose to have done unto himself (the middle voice).

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not something that can be obeyed therefore man cannot choose to have this baptism done to himself. Only God can baptize with the HOly Spirit, only God chooses whom He would baptize with the Holy Spirit.

1)only God can decide and controls who would be baptized with the Holy Spirit

2) if someone argues one has to be baptized with the Holy Spirit to be saved

then

3) if I am not baptized with the Holy Spirit I will be lost, be lost due to a failure on God's part to baptize me with the Holy Spirit. God then is culpable for the lost.

Yet since water baptism is commanded and is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that is in effect, man of his own will can choose to obey this command to be water bpatized or not and those that are not water baptized are lost due to thier own culpablity for not obeying this command.


cyberJosh said:
I think you have it backwards to be honest. The only point of comparison between the Gentiles' and the Jews' salvation experience (other than the required element of faith/believing) specifically hinged on the evidence of the baptism with the Spirit.

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." (Acts 10:44-48)

Note that the "also" and "just as we have" both refer to the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles (which Peter associated with the baptism with the Spirit in the next chapter), and the water baptism only comes afterward and was never the object of the "also" or "just as we have" comparison.

Again in the next chapter:

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." (Acts 11:15-18)

The "as upon us at the beginning" and "same gift as He gave us" that are speaking of the Spirit Baptism are the specific points of comparison between the Jews' experience and the Gentiles', not the water baptism, and clearly they are associated with what happened "when we believed". The allusion to water baptism is not given until the end in the form of not being able to "withstand" God in light of what He had already done, with what God had done (poured out the Spirit/baptized with the Spirit) being the whole point of comparison.

God Bless,
~Josh
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In Acts 2, only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit not Peter's listeners. The us at the beginning would refer to the apostles.

In Acts 1:1-5 it was the apostles who were promised baptism with the Holy Spirit no one else in this context was made this promise.

In Acts 2:1-4 the plural pronouns 'they' and 'them' refer back to the nearest plural antecedent "eleven apostles' In Acts 1:26.

I will also note that some scholars estimate that some 7 to maybe 10 years passed from Acts 2 to Acts 10. In Acts 10 when the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit Peter had to go all the way back to Acts 2 "at the beginning" to find another comparable event. If baptism with the Holy Spirit was a common event among all Christians why could Peter not use a more current example instead of having to go back so far? This tells me that baptism with the Holy Spirit was not an event that occurred all the time. The only times this baptism occurs in the NT is in Acts 2 and Acts 10. The eunuch among others were water baptized and not baptized with the Holy Spirit.
 
cyberjosh said:
especially since water baptism does not save (it is the elements of faith, confession, and repentance which bring that about).
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Peter begs to differ.

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 
Webb said:
Mitspa, the real point is the "baptism" is not the "Holy Spirit" any more than John's baptism was actually John. And, of course, I'm still waiting for that verse (or verses) teaching the promise of Holy Spirit baptism continuing "unto the end of the world.

Have a blest day
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Again I say to you who do not have the Holy Spirit, you better get! and all of it you can:-)

If you have it? ask for more! and more "be ye being filled"

I dont care what you call it! we all need it, and in as much abundance as we can handle! :thumbsup
 
cyberjosh said:
I almost forgot to reply to this. Thanks for the kind words BornAgain. As I said this is a sincere truth seeking effort for me. I am very tired and weary from all the times that I've seen the Word 'manhandled' and confused, and I am seeking the truth earnestly now no matter what beliefs it may cost me.
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cyberjosh said:
May God bless you and keep you!
~Josh
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Let me commend you for your effort. I too did this several years ago. After doing so and doing an in depth study of the Scriptures and the first Christians I came to the realization that much of what is taught today in Christianity is in fact "NOT" Christian. I would be happy to assist you in your search for truth, it is an arduous journey but it is well worth the effort and it is invigorating when you being to see the real truth. All of the problem passages start to disappear, things begin to reconcile easily and nicely. Many of the topics debated today simply disappear. It is most freeing. As I began my studies I put every doctrine on the table, those that couldn't stand up to Scripture got tossed aside. I change about 75% of what I had formerly believed. This constant back and forth over salvation among Christians, It misses the point entirely. I learned from my studies, the big picture, God's plan. Man's salvation is just a small part of God's plan. Christians wrestle over this aspect or that aspect of salvation and salvation is just a means to an end. Think about what Jesus said, unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is a means to entering into God's kingdom. God's overall plan is the kingdom of Heaven, yet most Christians don't even think about the kingdom of Heaven unless maybe in some abstract way, yet, the very point of becoming a Christian is to enter into that kingdom. When you find the truth the "isms" (Arminianism, Calvinism, etc.) will all disappear. You won't have passages of the Bible that you have to wrestle with because you can't fit them in. It seems to me that you have a good attitude; it is of the utmost importance that you be willing to reject any doctrine that doesn't fit with the Scriptures. Again, if I can be of any help at all, please let me know. It does my heart good to see one who is searching for truth.
 
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Butch5 said:
Let me commend you for your effort. I too did this several years ago. After doing so and doing an in depth study of the Scriptures and the first Christians I came to the realization that much of what is taught today in Christianity is in fact "NOT" Christian. I would be happy to assist you in your search for truth, it is an arduous journey but it is well worth the effort and it is invigorating when you being to see the real truth. All of the problem passages start to disappear, things begin to reconcile easily and nicely. Many of the topics debated today simply disappear. It is most freeing. As I began my studies I put every doctrine on the table, those that couldn't stand up to Scripture got tossed aside. I change about 75% of what I had formerly believed. This constant back and forth over salvation among Christians, It misses the point entirely. I learned from my studies, the big picture, God's plan. Man's salvation is just a small part of God's plan. Christians wrestle over this aspect or that aspect of salvation and salvation is just a means to an end. Think about what Jesus said, unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Salvation is a means to entering into God's kingdom. God's overall plan is the kingdom of Heaven, yet most Christians don't even think about the kingdom of Heaven unless maybe in some abstract way, yet, the very point of becoming a Christian is to enter into that kingdom. When you find the truth the "isms" (Arminians, Calvinism, etc.) will all disappear. You won't have passages of the Bible that you have to wrestle with because you can't fit them in. It seems to me that you have a good attitude; it is of the utmost importance that you be willing to reject any doctrine that doesn't fit with the Scriptures. Again, if I can be of any help at all, please let me know. It does my heart good to see one who is searching for truth.
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If you reject part of the truth you reject all of it...

Mark 7:9 (KJV)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

They could not do both, so in order to keep their tradition they rejected the commandment of God. Note that Jesus did not deny the charge they brought against his disciples but virtually acknowledged its truth. He came down from heaven, not to do his own will, but the will of God who sent him John 6:38 and not, "the tradition of the elders." "The precepts of men" are no part of the will of God. Jesus did not keep them, because they were not commandments of God. In reply to this accusation, Jesus attacked tradition itself and charged his accusers with three things: (1) hypocrisy, because they pretended to honor God with their lips when their hearts were far from him; (2) worshiping God in vain, because they taught "as their doctrines the precepts of men"; (3) rejecting the commandments of God in order to keep their tradition. He applied the declaration of Isaiah 29:13 to them: "And their fear of me is a commandment of men which hath been taught them."
 
Hi Mitspa--Again, as usual, all words (subjective) and no scripture. You can't "get" whats not there for you to "get". don't you "get" it? Still waiting for scripture teaching the baptism of the Spirit continues until this day.
 
BornAgain said:
If you reject part of the truth you reject all of it...

Mark 7:9 (KJV)
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
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What exactly is it that you are referencing?
 
Webb said:
Hi Mitspa--Again, as usual, all words (subjective) and no scripture. You can't "get" whats not there for you to "get". don't you "get" it? Still waiting for scripture teaching the baptism of the Spirit continues until this day.
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The Holy Spirit is not a debate issue for me. You would be wise to find another topic yourself.



2Pe 2:1


 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2

 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3

 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4

 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
 
Mitspa--The false prophet (as per your response) is the one who cannot come up with supporting sciptiure. Again, where does scripture provide the supposed comfort of a continuing baptism of the Holy Spirit today? Ephesians 4 clearly states there is but one baptism. It can't be John's or the baptism of fire, or Holy Spirit baptism or water baptism all at the same time. Only one by the time Paul wrote Ephesians. Again, which of the 4 mentioned above is the baptism of Jesus' great commission as per Matt.28:18,19 which is unto the end of the world?
 
5 For those who livep according to the flesh think about the things of the flesh,q but those who liver according to the Spirit, about the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind-set of the fleshs is death,t but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind-set of the flesh is hostileu to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those who are in the fleshv cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, sincew the Spirit of God lives in you.x{ But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,y he does not belong to Him. }10 Now if Christ is in you,z the body is deada because of sin, but the Spiritb is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the deadc lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life throughd His Spirit who lives in you. no spirit==no salvation :readbible
 
Webb said:
Hi Mitspa--Again, as usual, all words (subjective) and no scripture. You can't "get" whats not there for you to "get". don't you "get" it? Still waiting for scripture teaching the baptism of the Spirit continues until this day.
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the baptism of the Spirit continues until this day.
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For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
baptizo.... ) to dip repeatedly, to (immerse, to submerge) (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
another word saturated--indwelt ..so yes the baptism of the spirit is today*** it takes place at the new Birth ..i do reject it as evidence of speaking in tongues .. that is a spiritual gift :readbible yes i do believe tongues are for today. even though i do not fully understand tongues. the Bible says But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinthians 12:31 or do we rip that section out of the Bible :chin
 
ezra said:
5 For those who livep according to the flesh think about the things of the flesh,q but those who liver according to the Spirit, about the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind-set of the fleshs is death,t but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind-set of the flesh is hostileu to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those who are in the fleshv cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, sincew the Spirit of God lives in you.x{ But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,y he does not belong to Him. }10 Now if Christ is in you,z the body is deada because of sin, but the Spiritb is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the deadc lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life throughd His Spirit who lives in you. no spirit==no salvation :readbible
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Exactly. All, truly born again believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, by Whom we cry: Abba Father (Romans 8).
 
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