Baptism being necessary for salvation...

[Alabaster]

There are many Christians who receive water baptism and are saved, but they do not ever experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit. His baptism is not what saves us. It empowers those who are ALREADY saved.

 

[cyberjosh]

Can God grant the Holy Spirit outside of water baptism? Absolutely, no questions asked. Is it normative in scripture?... What's normative, is that those who have been granted the Holy Spirit, have also been Baptized in water.

That is very true and is an excellent observation. It is normative, and for good reason, because it provides an opportunity for professing with the mouth and testifying openly to others that you have taken and believed in Christ to be your Savior. It is possible to make that profession without water baptism, but it is water baptism which is the normative and prescribed method of demonstrating that inward commitment.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jasoncran]

There are many Christians who receive water baptism and are saved, but they do not ever experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit. His baptism is not what saves us. It empowers those who are ALREADY saved.

lol. i haved that discussion with jeff before. the water baptism and the holy ghost one are two different events.though if one asked while being immersed it could happen at the same time as you are immersed in water.

 

[handy]

During war time people are sometimes lead to the Lord and never have a chance to be baptized in water. In the New Testament people who accepted Christ as Saviour were water baptized,however what if one of the persons in the house of Cornilus had a heart attack after receiving the Holy Spirit and died before being water baptized? This may sound silly but this is a very important question, was the Holy Spirit baptism enough to actually save or does it take baptism in water before God can completely save a person?

Yes, naturally there are times when someone cannot be baptized. During a war, when they can turn to God, sometimes moments before death...or, perhaps as one lay dying of a heart attack.

This was what I meant when I said, "Unless you want to spend your entire walk with Christ on this earth hanging from a cross, you need to be baptized." Perhaps the "cross" is a war in which one does not survive, or a immediate and lethal health crises, or a car crash, or the moment one spends seeing the piano falling from the roof, but before it crashes onto one...the list of things that might happen to a person between the time they accept Christ as Lord and Savior and their physical death within a short time is endless.

But, all of these times would be exceptional. The norm is that people do live for a while after accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. The thief on the cross didn't, nor would the "atheist in the foxhole" that was snatched just as the bomb blew.

For the rest of us though, if we have enough time to sit here and debate about it on line, we have enough time to be baptized.

 

[cyberjosh]

There are many Christians who receive water baptism and are saved, but they do not ever experience the baptism of the Holy Spirit. His baptism is not what saves us. It empowers those who are ALREADY saved.

I believe that what you are speaking of is the Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a "second experience". The thing is though that the giving of the Spirit on Pentecost is tied directly with enduing the disciples with "power [dunamis] from on high" (Luke 24:49) in the form of the Holy Spirit. If you read the New Testament carefully every Christian unequivically has been given this power by the Spirit to live the Christian life, else the Christian life would be an impossible endeavor. Christians are not powerless and dry of the Spirit until they receive some secondary experience. God graciously gives His Spirit to all who call on Him. For more on why I believe what I do about the Baptism of the Spirit please see my paper.

I best not comment too much more though, because I really don't want to get into an argument right now. That is just how I currently understand the issue from many times past in which I have considered (and even debated) this issue.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Alabaster]

I believe that way you are speaking of is the Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second experience. The thing is though that the giving of the Spirit on Pentecost is tied directly with enduing the disciples with "power [dunamis] from on high" in the form of the Holy Spirit. If you read the New Testament carefully every Christian unequivically has been given this power by the Spirit to live the Christian life, else the Christian life would be an impossible endeavor. Christians are not powerless and dry of the Spirit until they receive some secondary experience. God graciously gives His Spirit to all who call on Him. For more on why I believe what I do about the Baptism of the Spirit please see my paper.

God Bless,

~Josh

I speak from Scriptural understanding, not some denomination. In scripture, Holy Spirit moved on believers, sometimes before water baptism, and often afterward, but it is a separate experience and it does not save. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us at Calvary.

Every believer in the NT received this baptism for empowerment and giftings to enable them to fulfill their callings with great ease and results, and without burnout.

 

[cyberjosh]

Amen to that! I think the baptism that we should be concerned about is the Baptism in the Spirit because that is God saving us.

Indeed sir. I have the same understanding about that.

 

[jasoncran]

I believe that what you are speaking of is the Pentecostal understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a "second experience". The thing is though that the giving of the Spirit on Pentecost is tied directly with enduing the disciples with "power [dunamis] from on high" (Acts 1:5) in the form of the Holy Spirit. If you read the New Testament carefully every Christian unequivically has been given this power by the Spirit to live the Christian life, else the Christian life would be an impossible endeavor. Christians are not powerless and dry of the Spirit until they receive some secondary experience. God graciously gives His Spirit to all who call on Him. For more on why I believe what I do about the Baptism of the Spirit please see my paper.

God Bless,

~Josh

why then did the apostle john or other gospel writer state that jesus spoke of the holy ghost being given when the Lord talked about the river of life flowing from the belly? and jesus breathed on the disciples when he said recieve ye the holy ghost. so at that time were they without the holy spirit and having his indwelling and thus lost?

i dont see it that way, they had to wait for the promise and were in christ and Got the baptism then and only then had that was another promise.
But that was for them only them all others do get the indwelling but not the baptism otherwise why then is the book of acts mention recieving the holy ghost after repentance if you already get it?

to clarify the apostles didnt have the indwelling till jesus left as the holy spirit wasnt at present on the earth and didnt come till acts 2. when one is saved and repents he gets the indwelling but not the baptism.

 

[cyberjosh]

I speak from Scriptural understanding, not some denomination.

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to be accusatory.

In scripture, Holy Spirit moved on believers, sometimes before water baptism, and often afterward, but it is a separate experience and it does not save. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us at Calvary.

Indeed, but one needs to study each of those cases in Acts to fully consider what is taking place. I cover most, if not all, of those instances mentioned in Acts in my paper. In Acts 19 Paul came across two men who had had the baptism of repentance (water baptism by John) but had not received the Holy Spirit. By Paul's question "Into what then were you baptized?" indicated that it was not water baptism that saved them, but faith in Jesus Christ. The fact that the the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was made the indicator of this though strongly suggests that the efficacious baptism is the one by which we are incorporated in the people of God by the Holy Spirit and made to be partakers of Christ. We call this being born of the Spirit. Dying to the flesh and being made alive by the Spirit is indicatative of the symbolism of baptism. Like wise we can be said to be baptised into Christ's death. One must consider each reference to baptism in the NT to consider what is being spoken about.

Every believer in the NT received this baptism for empowerment and giftings to enable them to fulfill their callings with great ease and results, and without burnout.

If you mean water baptism then you are saying that anyone who has not been water baptized cannot be saved, yes?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Sam21]

why then did the apostle john or other gospel writer state that jesus spoke of the holy ghost being given when the Lord talked about the river of life flowing from the belly? and jesus breathed on the disciples when he said recieve ye the holy ghost. so at that time were they without the holy spirit and having his indwelling and thus lost?

i dont see it that way, they had to wait for the promise and were in christ and Got the baptism then and only then had that was another promise.
But that was for them only them all others do get the indwelling but not the baptism otherwise why then is the book of acts mention recieving the holy ghost after repentance if you already get it?

to clarify the apostles didnt have the indwelling till jesus left as the holy spirit wasnt at present on the earth and didnt come till acts 2. when one is saved and repents he gets the indwelling but not the baptism.

[ Paul said that ALL believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, John the baptist said that Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit. If you have truely accepted Christ as Saviour and been born of the Spirit of God then you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[cyberjosh]

why then did the apostle john or other gospel writer state that jesus spoke of the holy ghost being given when the Lord talked about the river of life flowing from the belly? and jesus breathed on the disciples when he said recieve ye the holy ghost. so at that time were they without the holy spirit and having his indwelling and thus lost?

If I understand you correctly the disciples were by no means lost during the ministry of Christ! Their faith was completely effectual, and in the same way the OT saints can be said to be saved. However when Jesus ascended he said he would send the Holy Spirit in His place, and the Temple which was in their midst (Jesus) now changed to each believer in Christ being a temple of God (individually) in which the Holy Spirit resides and so also the Church (corporately). Certainly the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a NT-only phenomenon, but was long promised back in Ezekiel.

I'm not an expert on pneumatology, but I do not believe water saves us. Faith saves us, and when we have faith we receive the Holy Spirit and power. The question is, does that describe the process of being Baptised by the Holy Spirit? There are many different opinions. I currently believe that the answer is 'yes'. I have been challenged recently by a book I am reading on Pneumatology to see the indwelling of the Spirit and regeneration seperately. Even so, this does not mean that every believer does not receive the Baptism of the Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

[ Paul said that ALL believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, John the baptist said that Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit. If you have truely accepted Christ as Saviour and been born of the Spirit of God then you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

verse on that? if that was the case oh repent and be baptised of the holy ghost? so not having the holy spirit is salvinic, again the thief on the cross without the holy ghost in him.

as the holy ghost cant be on the earth when christ walked on the earth. baptise with WATER and Fire actually. the fire is in reference to the holy ghost. water the spirit are two separate things
if we get the water at repentance according to you then why wouldnt the baptismo of the spirit not be the same?

if we are saved without water baptism, yet have the immersion of the holy ghost then why difference?ye must be born of the spirit and water. and beside greek for epi and in, and epi means along side and in means immersion.

 

[jasoncran]

If I understand you correctly the disciples were by no means lost during the ministry of Christ! Their faith was completely effectual, and in the same way the OT saints can be said to be saved. However when Jesus ascended he said he would send the Holy Spirit in His place, and the Temple which was in their midst (Jesus) now changed to each believer in Christ being a temple of God in which the Holy Spirit resides. Certainly the indwelling is a NT only phenomenon and was long promised back in Ezekiel.

I'm not an expert on pneumatology, but I do not believe water saves us. Faith saves us, and when we have faith we receive the Holy Spirit and power. The question is, does that describe the process of being Baptised by the Holy Spirit? There are many different opinions. I currently believe that the answer is 'yes'. I have been challenged recently by a book I am reading on Pneumatology to see the indwelling of the Spirit and regeneration seperately. Even so, this does not mean that every believer does not receive the Baptism of the Spirit.

i have found that not be the case while its the true that he is with the believer but power? no why then would have to come for the original 12 if they already got him at repentance. remember that the holy ghost cant dwell in any unclean vessel.

so the apostles didnt have the baptism at all, till acts then only then did they get that, and nor did they have the en.

 

[Sam21]

verse on that? if that was the case oh repent and be baptised of the holy ghost? so not having the holy spirit is salvinic, again the thief on the cross without the holy ghost in him.

as the holy ghost cant be on the earth when christ walked on the earth. baptise with WATER and Fire actually. the fire is in reference to the holy ghost. water the spirit are two separate things
if we get the water at repentance according to you then why wouldnt the baptismo of the spirit not be the same?

if we are saved without water baptism, yet have the immersion of the holy ghost then why difference?ye must be born of the spirit and water. and beside greek for epi and in, and epi means along side and in means immersion.

Do I have to look up the verses(tired). The Holy Spirit was with the disciples when Christ walked the earth but they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until later. The apostles were already saved even before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Paul said that all believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

Do I have to look up the verses(tired). The Holy Spirit was with the disciples when Christ walked the earth but they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit until later. The apostles were already saved even before they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Paul said that all believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

why then did christ say this, it is expedient that i go, for if i dont go the comforter cannot come. why then would the comforter come if he was already there on the earth? and functioning that way?

having the indwelling isnt salvinic. as the thief never had it.

 

[Sam21]

why then did christ say this, it is expedient that i go, for if i dont go the comforter cannot come. why then would the comforter come if he was already there on the earth? and functioning that way?

having the indwelling isnt salvinic. as the thief never had it.

John14:17 I will pray the Father and He will give you another Comforter...but you know Him FOR HE DWELLS WITH YOU(NOW) and SHALL BE IN YOU(LATER).

 

[jasoncran]

ok, but thats not what the baptism is now is of the holy ghost. the later to which alabaster adresses has evidence to it.

you deny that later and yes i was think that if the God head was on the earth but the baptism happens all at once? repent and be baptised?

ok why then ask for something that you already get upon salvation? for instance you get the en upon salvation and keil over dead the on never happened as you didnt ask. the problem here is that you didnt live long enough, the thief didnt get the in he had the with. i stand corrected on that. these hs debates are confusing

again now if the epi and en occur all at once why then does peter say repent and be be baptised in the holy ghost? and then theres the sign to that?

in fact they even go to the jerususalem council as cornelius was one that Got the baptism as he didnt ask he(Holy Spirit) just fell.

so then by that thinking of yours all believers upon salvation should be able to speak in unknown tounges of men or angels. hmm. i know you arent pentacostal. so i dont you will buy that.

is the with and indwelling the same thing? does baptism mean the same thing as the water do you as the word baptismo means to immerse. so an immersion happens at the same time according to you at salvation?

and can you tell me why the non-charismatics dont operate like this according to your doctrine if they get the holy ghost all at once as indwelling see acts 6:5? and also here acts 9:17. if you noticed theres a laying of hands to get the holy ghost and it list only they were baptised in jesus had recieved the holy ghost, meaning all others that werent see 9:14 the samaratians recieved the word of God. hmm when one recieves the word of God doesnt that mean one recieved the lord as in salvation? yet john and and peter had to lay hands.

why?keep in mind that was after the promise was given.and the samartians were prayed for to recieve something that should have already had if they got saved the holy ghost baptism. they were saved if they recieved the word of god.

 

[Alabaster]

Paul said that all believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Paul wouldn't say that unless he knew that they were. Not all believers experience the infilling baptism.

 

[Sam21]

For by one Spirit are you all(church in general) baptized into one body...and have been all made to drink into one Spirit(1Cor12:13). So all believers have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

 

[cleanfreak]

If anyone is interested I have written a paper on the purpose of Baptism that you can find on my site here: The Purpose of Baptism. I believe that the only effectual and saving Baptism is the Baptism of the Spirit which all believers receive. Apart from being born of the Spirit of God we can have no eternal life.

Thank you for the link to your paper. If everyone here will take the time to read it, it will put to rest the debate.

Well done Josh.