baptism for salvation?

[JLB]

How is repentance only until John? Explain.

We spend a lot of time wondering what Jesus meant by being 'born of water', and how that equates to being 'born of the flesh', but Paul speaks plainly of being 'born according to the flesh' in his letter to the Galatians and we see that it means abiding by the law (repentance) without faith. And that is exactly what John preached--repentance according to the righteousness of the law prior to the revelation of faith in Jesus Christ. But as Paul and Jesus both teach, required repentance according to the righteousness of the law is not how a person sees and enters into the kingdom of God. You not only must repent of your unrighteousness, but you must also have faith in Christ to enter the kingdom of God. This is exactly the stumbling block of the Jews. They reject the new birth and rely on the symbolic waters of repentance alone to see the kingdom.

The works of the flesh and produced when a person follows and yields to the lustful desires of the human body.

The flesh is a reference to the human body here in Galatians.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

It is clear that Paul is teaching that the flesh is the human body with the sin nature that indwells and empowers it.

Nicodemus was of the mindset that because he was a descendent of Abraham, that he was entitled to the blessing of Abraham, and that he himself was in Covenant with God by birthright.

Jesus taught him that he must be born again.

He taught him this through the earth concept of natural child birth.

For flesh gives birth to flesh.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nicodemus was of the mindset that because he was a descendent of Abraham, that he was entitled to the blessing of Abraham, and that he himself was in Covenant with God by birthright.

True, but the water being amniotic fluid doesn't explain how what Jesus is saying applies to gentiles. My explanation does.

Jesus is definitely talking about a birth. That much is clear. But it has to be a birth that covers all humans, not just natural descendants of Abraham (unless you want to insist Jesus is only talking to Jews). That's why the water has to be figurative of something else. The water representing birth into the kingdom through baptismal repentance covers ALL humans.

When a person repents they are declaring their desire to be joined to and identified with the kingdom of God. Water baptism was the clearly understood metaphor/metonymy for 'repentance'. It is in that way that Baptism represents birth into the kingdom of God, but an insufficient birth. You must also be born from above, not just born of the waters of repentance. To illustrate the point, consider how many people were probably baptized in Israel by John (the Bible says 'all'), then consider how many disciples there were at and after Christ's death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The works of the flesh and produced when a person follows and yields to the lustful desires of the human body.

The flesh is a reference to the human body here in Galatians.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21

It is clear that Paul is teaching that the flesh is the human body with the sin nature that indwells and empowers it.
[...]
For flesh gives birth to flesh.


JLB

The flesh that Paul talks about is the fleshly, outward effort of obeying God. That is what Paul means by being born, or birthed, after the flesh.

Do you think people who don't believe in Christ and only have an outward commitment to God aren't trying to do righteous things? They, too, just like those who believe in Christ are trying to please God by being obedient. The difference is, they only have a fleshly outward 'birth' (that's what Paul calls it--a birth). They don't have the 'other' birth. The second birth. The birth from above.

The first birth is indeed marked by sin and failure despite it's effort to do righteous things*. The second birth is marked by victory over sin and a change of nature. But it's clear that the flesh that Paul is talking about is the fleshly effort to do righteous things. Water baptism represents this fleshly repentance and decision to do right. But until that outward decision to act righteously is also accompanied by the inward birth by the Spirit you will not see or enter into the kingdom of God.

(*I think this is how/why John's repentance paved the way for Christ. People repented and turned back to God but found, like some of us today, that the effort is doomed and all it did is prove our need for salvation through Christ--the second birth.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nicodemus was a teacher of the Jews in his day. Nicodemus was being a smart elec to Jesus when he said to Jesus, "can a man enter into His mothers womb a second time?"

Physical birth was being discussed and Jesus threw Nicodemus a curve ball because of His sarcasm.

He used the Phrase"born of water" for physical birth to this teacher of the Jews because Nicodemus knew that water had a spiritual connotation/analogy to it. Specifically to the laver in the temple. Nicodemus would have to use the water in the Laver every morning to sanctify his hands and feet."And you shall make a laver of copper, and its pedestal of copper... " (Ex. 30:18)

This is an interesting tidbit that I am quite sure Nicodemus knew;

The midrash explains......

The Temple was extravagant, gold, silver highly decorated but the laver was copper and remained copper throughout the generations. Were did the copper come from?

The copper was "born" of the righteous women of Israel. The righteous women would donate all of their shinny copper mirrors and jewelry to the temple to make the laver.

So Jesus was using Nicodemus's natural religious vocabulary to help him see the spiritual life.

You'll have to explain the connection between the basin for washing and literal, physical birth. How is the priestly basin for washing figurative of natural childbirth?

I think Numbers 19 and the water of cleansing is actually where you get a better picture of the concept of water baptism for the remission of sins.

And I personally would prefer Paul's plain explanation of being 'born after the flesh' than anything according to midrash.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think you would be better entertained with something more exciting like z one on one with Webb.

JLB

No, that would be like talking to a Jehovah's Witness. They will only tell you what they are sure is the truth and will not discuss or refute your challenges to their beliefs.

I noticed over the months he will not address any of my challenges to his beliefs. That's the main reason why I say it would be a waste of time. It seems he's only interested in restating his position, not entering into honest debate about opposing views.

 

[JLB]

True, but the water being amniotic fluid doesn't explain how what Jesus is saying applies to gentiles. My explanation does.

Jesus is definitely talking about a birth. That much is clear. But it has to be a birth that covers all humans, not just natural descendants of Abraham (unless you want to insist Jesus is only talking to Jews). That's why the water has to be figurative of something else. The water representing birth into the kingdom through baptismal repentance covers ALL humans.

When a person repents they are declaring their desire to be joined to and identified with the kingdom of God. Water baptism was the clearly understood metaphor/metonymy for 'repentance'. It is in that way that Baptism represents birth into the kingdom of God, but an insufficient birth. You must also be born from above, not just born of the waters of repentance. To illustrate the point, consider how many people were probably baptized in Israel by John (the Bible says 'all'), then consider how many disciples there were at and after Christ's death.

I never said natural child birth is just for the descendants of Abraham.

The Jewish mindset is what Jesus was addressing.

Born of water has nothing to do with Baptism. Nothing.

Born again has nothing to do with water Baptism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I never said natural child birth is just for the descendants of Abraham.

The Jewish mindset is what Jesus was addressing.

Okay. Now explain how a gentile gets this same confident, but deceitful, Jewish mindset that Jesus' words would apply to them too.

Do that and you'll begin to see what I'm saying.

For now I will not discuss the disparity between you insisting the water is a natural birth, but now explaining Jesus' teaching in terms of a figurative birth (what I've been doing). We can come back to that.

Right now I'm curious as to what happened to the gentile who adopts the same Jewish mindset of misplaced confidence in the kingdom as the Jews have. How does a gentile join himself to, and identify with, the nation of God's people that they could have the same misplaced confidence about their place in the kingdom that the Jews had/have?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Born of water has nothing to do with Baptism. Nothing.

I think it does. But that's the point we are debating.

You'll get it if you can draw the straight line that exists between the desire to obey God and be identified with his kingdom, but resisting the second birth (as the Judaizers and every other Jew and gentile who has resisted the gospel but wants to serve God does, that is, serve God but not get born again) and what they do as a result of that desire.

Do you think the Judaizers and everybody else who relies on the power of repentant obedience alone to serve God and be a part of the kingdom did not get baptized as part of that decision to be connected to and serve the kingdom? That is in fact how they did/ do that. Can anyone argue that point? But Jesus says that is not enough. You must also be born again, by the Spirit, not by water alone.

Born again has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Right. Is that what you think I've been suggesting? If so, I'm at a loss as to how you can get that out of what I'm saying.

I'm showing the very distinct difference between wanting to serve God by repenting via water baptism (as is the custom) and actually being born again. They represent two very different 'births'. Repentance alone births a natural person into this earthly kingdom of God--a person who will not see or enter into the kingdom of God. These are the children of Hagar--children born after the flesh. But faith in Christ (the second birth) births a spiritual person who will inherit the kingdom of God. They are the children of Sarah--children born after the Spirit as a result of the promise. They will not be cast out of the kingdom on the Day of Judgment.

 

[JLB]

I think it does. But that's the point we are debating.

You'll get it if you can draw the straight line that exists between the desire to obey God and be identified with his kingdom, but resisting the second birth (as the Judaizers and every other Jew and gentile who has resisted the gospel but wants to serve God does, that is, serve God but not get born again) and what they do as a result of that desire.

Do you think the Judaizers and everybody else who relies on the power of repentant obedience alone to serve God and be a part of the kingdom did not get baptized as part of that decision to be connected to and serve the kingdom? That is in fact how they did/ do that. Can anyone argue that point? But Jesus says that is not enough. You must also be born again, by the Spirit, not by water alone.



Right. Is that what you think I've been suggesting? If so, I'm at a loss as to how you can get that out of what I'm saying.

I'm showing the very distinct difference between wanting to serve God by repenting via water baptism (as is the custom) and actually being born again. They represent two very different 'births'. Repentance alone births a natural person into this earthly kingdom of God--a person who will not see or enter into the kingdom of God. These are the children of Hagar--children born after the flesh. But faith in Christ (the second birth) births a spiritual person who will inherit the kingdom of God. They are the children of Sarah--children born after the Spirit as a result of the promise. They will not be cast out of the kingdom on the Day of Judgment.

By your theory, the order of salvation is Baptized in water first, then you are born of the Spirit.

Sorry, Baptism in water has nothing to do with being born again.

It does have to do with obeying the Gospel.

Born of water is a simple natural [earthly] reference to illustrate to Nicodemus the spiritual reality of spiritual birth, rather than him relying on being of the bloodline of Abraham.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By your theory, the order of salvation is Baptized in water first, then you are born of the Spirit.

No, that is not the point. Repentance is first (a change of mind about sin) as a prerequisite for being born of the Spirit.

No unrepentant person is born again. But many 'repentant' people are not born again. They seek to serve and live for God, but they resist faith in Christ. The Judaizers are perfect examples of this. They trusted in their 'birth through the sea and into Moses', figuratively speaking, but rejected the second birth, faith in Jesus Christ. They, and everyone else who does that, will not see or enter into the kingdom. They are the offspring of Hagar. They serve God by the power of their flesh. That fleshly effort births fleshly children of the kingdom, not spiritual ones. They are 'born after the flesh', as Paul says. Flesh giving birth to flesh.

Sorry, Baptism in water has nothing to do with being born again.

It has something to do with it insofar as baptism being a metonymy for repentance. But you don't need water to repent of your sins.

It does have to do with obeying the Gospel.

What has something to do with obeying the gospel? Water baptism, or being born again?

If Jesus commands his people to be water baptized and they do not do that, are they being obedient to the gospel? To not obey defies the very thing you (rightly) defend--that a person has to be obedient to expect to be saved on the day of wrath. How does disobeying the command to be water baptized somehow avoid the same condemnation 'do not steal', for example, brings if we do not obey it? Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying water baptism has any power within itself, like a legalistic work, to justify a person. Not getting baptized can only condemn a person if that disobedience--like all other disobediences--represents a rejection of the forgiveness of God in Christ.

Born of water is a simple natural [earthly] reference to illustrate to Nicodemus the spiritual reality of spiritual birth, rather than him relying on being of the bloodline of Abraham.

But what about us gentiles? Are you saying Jesus is not speaking to us? Or do we need to adjust the layer of interpretation slightly to make it apply to gentiles? I'm not saying that it's not possible or reasonable to do that. I'm asking if that's what we have to do to reconcile your literal birth defense, and your figurative birth defense of the passage.

 

[jasoncran]

is this real? we are arguing that being born of water isn't symbolic of the salvanic act of repentance?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

is this real? we are arguing that being born of water isn't symbolic of the salvanic act of repentance?

It is a very popular teaching in the church that the 'water' of John 3 is amniotic fluid. And JLB, as far as I can tell, is saying it is not only literal amniotic fluid, but Jewish amniotic fluid. (I'm glad I'm done eating supper ).

I still want him to show how that interpretation can also be applied, figuratively, to us gentiles. If he does that, he'll be taking a first step toward seeing what I'm saying.

 

[jasoncran]

It is a very popular teaching in the church that the 'water' of John 3 is amniotic fluid. And JLB, as far as I can tell, is saying it is not only literal amniotic fluid, but Jewish amniotic fluid. (I'm glad I'm done eating supper ).

I still want him to show how that interpretation can also be applied, figuratively, to us gentiles. If he does that, he'll be taking a first step toward seeing what I'm saying.

ov vey. jewish what? sheesh. my church baptizes. I have asked monica what they teach and she said all that I had heard. its a symbolic death and raising up like our lord. to wit to show the world we are a Christian. nothing more and no less.i thought I had a hard heart. I admit my stoney hart on things that I know to do and I ask prayer for those.its a road block from an unbelieving spouse as I ought to give. but I will not justify and build a doctrine on why tithing isn't biblical or giving. why on earth some Christians want to fight a simple command of Christ to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Son.Father, the Holy Ghost.

 

[JLB]

No, that is not the point. Repentance is first (a change of mind about sin) as a prerequisite for being born of the Spirit.

No unrepentant person is born again. But many 'repentant' people are not born again. They seek to serve and live for God, but they resist faith in Christ. The Judaizers are perfect examples of this. They trusted in their 'birth through the sea and into Moses', figuratively speaking, but rejected the second birth, faith in Jesus Christ. They, and everyone else who does that, will not see or enter into the kingdom. They are the offspring of Hagar. They serve God by the power of their flesh. That fleshly effort births fleshly children of the kingdom, not spiritual ones. They are 'born after the flesh', as Paul says. Flesh giving birth to flesh.



It has something to do with it insofar as baptism being a metonymy for repentance. But you don't need water to repent of your sins.



What has something to do with obeying the gospel? Water baptism, or being born again?

If Jesus commands his people to be water baptized and they do not do that, are they being obedient to the gospel? To not obey defies the very thing you (rightly) defend--that a person has to be obedient to expect to be saved on the day of wrath. How does disobeying the command to be water baptized somehow avoid the same condemnation 'do not steal', for example, brings if we do not obey it? Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying water baptism has any power within itself, like a legalistic work, to justify a person. Not getting baptized can only condemn a person if that disobedience--like all other disobediences--represents a rejection of the forgiveness of God in Christ.



But what about us gentiles? Are you saying Jesus is not speaking to us? Or do we need to adjust the layer of interpretation slightly to make it apply to gentiles? I'm not saying that it's not possible or reasonable to do that. I'm asking if that's what we have to do to reconcile your literal birth defense, and your figurative birth defense of the passage.

Yes that is the point. You are advocating by your doctrine according to the scriptures that states -

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

If you believe born of water is baptism in water, then you are in fact teaching a person must be baptized in water first, then born again, as the order of the scriptures are clear.

Born of water and the Spirit is what Jesus taught.

The scripture here in John 3 does not teach Born of Spirit and water.

If not then you are agreeing with the doctrine that states born of water and Spirit is simultaneous at water baptism.

In other words every one who is baptized in water is automatically born again.

Now, tell me which is it.

A.] Baptism in water first, then born again.

or

B.] Baptism in water and Spirit is simultaneous and a person is born again at water baptism.

Frankly, you have got this simple teaching so tangled up with other doctrines, I don't believe you even know what you believe.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is a very popular teaching in the church that the 'water' of John 3 is amniotic fluid. And JLB, as far as I can tell, is saying it is not only literal amniotic fluid, but Jewish amniotic fluid. (I'm glad I'm done eating supper ).

I still want him to show how that interpretation can also be applied, figuratively, to us gentiles. If he does that, he'll be taking a first step toward seeing what I'm saying.

First of all Those are you words, about what I said.

They are most certainly not my words.

I have said Jesus is dealing with the mindset of the Jew in that day, that believes that they are saved because they are the natural offspring of Abraham.

He taught Nicodemus that he must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe you can not understand the plain words and what Jesus is clearly teaching this man.

Natural birth from the line of Abraham does not qualify one to enter the kingdom of God, you must be born again.

Sorry you are having so much trouble grasping this concept.


JLB

 

[JLB]

is this real? we are arguing that being born of water isn't symbolic of the salvanic act of repentance?

Jason, we are to be baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit.

These are two different baptisms.

John 3:5-6 is dealing with being born again.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

Do you believe we are born again when we are baptized in water.

Is that what your church teaches.

I doubt it.

We get baptized as a result of being born again.

We get baptized after we are born again.

That is what the scriptures teach.

What do you believe?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes that is the point. You are advocating by your doctrine according to the scriptures that states -

Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5

If you believe born of water is baptism in water, then you are in fact teaching a person must be baptized in water first, then born again, as the order of the scriptures are clear.

I'm not teaching that because I've been saying 'water' is a metonymy for water baptism. Water represents repentance. Repentance precedes being born again.

Now, tell me which is it.

A.] Baptism in water first, then born again.

or

B.] Baptism in water and Spirit is simultaneous and a person is born again at water baptism.

Neither.

Repentance comes before the birth from above.

Frankly, you have got this simple teaching so tangled up with other doctrines, I don't believe you even know what you believe.

I trust you are clear on what I've been saying now (at least on this point) and that it isn't tangled up as you think.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First of all Those are you words, about what I said.

They are most certainly not my words.

I have said Jesus is dealing with the mindset of the Jew in that day, that believes that they are saved because they are the natural offspring of Abraham.

He taught Nicodemus that he must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe you can not understand the plain words and what Jesus is clearly teaching this man.

Natural birth from the line of Abraham does not qualify one to enter the kingdom of God, you must be born again.

Sorry you are having so much trouble grasping this concept.


JLB

I'm not in disagreement with the significance of Nicodemus' confidence of being in the natural line of Abraham. What you have to do is explain the application of the passage to us gentiles. So I ask again:

How does a gentile become like Nicodemus that he could take false comfort in his identification with the offspring of Abraham?

 

[JLB]

I'm not in disagreement with the significance of Nicodemus' confidence of being in the natural line of Abraham. What you have to do is explain the application of the passage to us gentiles. So I ask again:
How does a gentile become like Nicodemus that he could take false comfort in his identification with the offspring of Abraham?

When we as gentiles are born again, we are children of Abraham.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We get baptized as a result of being born again.

We get baptized after we are born again.

That is what the scriptures teach.

Depending on what message we hear, and what we repent of, we get born again because we have repented. Then we get water baptized as a public declaration of that decision to repent.

But a repentance without faith in Christ is what Paul calls being 'birthed after the flesh'. It's an outward obedience minus faith in Christ. These people are, figuratively speaking, the offspring of Hagar (Galatians 4). They do not inherit the kingdom. Jesus and Paul both teach that you must ALSO be birthed of the Spirit, from above. Those people are the offspring of Sarah. They are the sons and daughters who will enter into and possess the kingdom of God.

Many, many people will try to enter the kingdom on the basis of their righteous works. But repentance (of which water baptism is a symbol) is not enough to enter the kingdom of heaven. That is 'flesh giving birth to flesh'--flesh that does not inherit the kingdom. A man must also be born of the Spirit through faith in the forgiveness of God through Christ.