Having problems with my pc and have not been able to post. Will someone let me know if this gets posted.
Thanks, Webb
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baptism for salvation?
- Thread starter Mark1616
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Having problems with my pc and have not been able to post. Will someone let me know if this gets posted.
Thanks, Webb
So far, you interpret born of water as repentance, and born of flesh as a reference to the birthing of a fleshly NON-SPIRITUAL person.
Born of water... for flesh gives birth to flesh. These two statements are a reference to birth, and are referring to the same thing.
Born of the spirit... for the Spirit gives birth to spirit. These two statements are a reference to birth, and are referring to the same thing.
Born of water... for flesh gives birth to flesh.. Your explanation has these two ideas directly opposed.
Jethro's interpretation -
[Born of water] repentance gives birth to a fleshly, non spiritual person.
You are mixing together many different New testament concepts to try and cover the fact that you simply misinterpret what Jesus was teaching.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
But I do believe in eternal security:
"12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem" (Revelation 3:12 NASB)
Keep believing and overcome to the very end and this promise of eternal security is yours.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Deborah13
Member
Jethro Bodine
Member
I see you.I see you.You are posting.
Do you see me?
Paul speaks of following after the covenant of works as a birth. Repentance is indeed entrance into a different life. But not the new life of the Spirit. That's the birth that must happen in addition to birth by the waters of repentance according to the way of the old covenant (works alone).
Deborah13
Member
I see you.
Do you see me?
Paul speaks of following after the covenant of works as a birth. Repentance is indeed entrance into a different life. But not the new life of the Spirit. That's the birth that must happen in addition to birth by the waters of repentance according to the way of the old covenant (works alone).
How could I miss all those teeth!
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well thank you for that information. But what value is this tidbit of obvious knowledge?
The 'passing through' the water of natural birth into a new place and life is obviously where baptism gets it's illustrative value. But that hardly means 'water' has to mean natural birth in Jesus' statement. The abundance of Biblical support shows he is talking about baptismal water as a metonymy for repentance to the things of God. That alone can not save. You must also be born again, from above, by the Spirit.
...and flesh gives birth to flesh, and Paul explains what that means. And it does not mean natural child birth. It means being birthed a natural man of flesh, not a spiritual one, through an old covenant style obedience (the effort of self alone) to the requirements of God. It's impossible to say the Bible does not teach this truth about obedience alone. And Jesus describing the birth he is talking about--the birth by water--which can not usher a person into the kingdom of God fits exactly in line with what Paul is teaching in Galatians 4 about the birth of the person, the man of works, who will not be ushered into the kingdom of God.
This is more of the Biblical evidence of how baptism is illustrative of passing through water to a different life. And it just so happens that the baptism the Israelites went through at the sea turned out to be nothing more than a baptism/ birth that bore children of Hagar, because they did not combine the message they heard with faith (Romans 9:32). The faith which fulfills the additional birth/ baptism that Jesus says is necessary to see the kingdom of God.
Following in that illustration from which baptism gets it's usefulness, 'pass through' is probably a more accurate description of baptism. Passing through to a new place and life, whether that be by literal water in repentance, or by the Spirit. Both usher a person into a different life. But both must happen for one to see the kingdom of God. We have a church these days that insist only the spiritual birth is necessary to see the kingdom.
And what life did they pass through to? Life as children of Hagar, or children of Sarah?
Obviously, we know they ended up as children of Hagar--people born in the natural way (by works) who can not inherit the kingdom. As necessary as it was/is for a person to enter through the sea and into Moses (that is, into obedient works of God), Paul says that is not enough. It fits perfectly with what Jesus is trying to get across to Nicodemus who is most likely the offspring of Hagar (a child born of works alone) at this point in time in his discussion with Jesus.
Can't you see the birth at the sea Paul is talking about is illustrating spiritual truths and has NOTHING to do with natural child birth. The point being, these are the same spiritual truths Jesus is talking about. Jesus is saying using the same illustration of birth by baptism(s) that it's not enough to be born into Moses (that is, repentance unto the required works of God). You must also be born from above, by the Spirit.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Oh, I thought you'd notice how I did my hair up today...both of them.How could I miss all those teeth!
Jethro Bodine
Member
veryberry
Member
what is "overcoming"?
1 John 5:4-5
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing is overcoming.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Not just faith, but faith that overcomes and leads us into obedience to God's commands.
"3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith." (1 John 5:3-4 NASB)
Overcoming is turning away from sin and toward obedience through our faith in Christ. John describes what this obedient overcoming looks like in his letters to the churches in Revelation. And for the sake of what we've been talking about here, Jesus and Paul both teach how just trying to be obedient is not enough.
Obedience, as required as it most certainly is (the first birth), must also be accompanied by faith in Christ, the second birth. That is the overcomer. The one who is victorious over sin through faith, not just 'victorious' through the deceitful effort of the flesh. The victorious one is the child of Sarah. The child who inherits the kingdom, not the child of Hagar who is turned away from the kingdom.
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Flesh gives birth to flesh is a reference to child birth of the natural body.
Flesh is a reference here to the natural body.
Paul uses the term flesh to refer to the natural body, and how the desires of the natural earthly body, has lustful cravings that are opposed to the Spirit.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19
This sinful nature still resides in the natural body and is opposed to the desires of the Spirit, that indwells the believer.
Paul encourages believers not to follow, or give in to these desires that remain in the physical body of a believer, though they have been born again.
The flesh is a reference to the physical body that is empowered by the sinful nature within.
The born again believer has been regenerated within, yet still struggles with the desires of the physical body.
Flesh is a reference to the physical body.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, is a reference to birth. This birth is of the natural earthly body.
Your interpretation of the words of jesus in John 3, are diametrically opposed to the new testament teachings.
Your interpretation states this -
[Born of water] repentance gives birth to a fleshly, non spiritual person.
This is what you are advocating, and don't seem to realize it.
JLB
veryberry
Member
Are you obedient everday at all times? if you are, then you would not commit sin and are sinless. Does this describe you? Or, do you try to be obedient and sometimes you are and sometimes you fail. If this describes you, then according to what you say, "its not enough". You need to quit trying, be 100% obedient. If you commit a sin, you are not being obedient.
Have you ever looked at a guy and thought to yourself that you should go and tell him the gospel but didn't? your not being obedient.
If I had to rely on "my faith" and "my obedience" for salvation, I fail every single day..
God said, that if I believe on the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for my sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, that I have eternal life. I believe it.
All God commands is to believe.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Are you ignoring the fact that the Galatians are obeying the law--IOW, they are repentant? Paul says that effort to be justified births a natural, unspiritual person for God, not a spiritual one. A child who ultimately is a slave to sin. A slave that doesn't inherit the kingdom as expected by the natural order of things (Paul calls it being born in the natural way). But that hardly means obedience to God is not required as the 'birth' a person must have to see the kingdom of God. Even if that wasn't what Jesus was talking about, I'd be surprised if you disagreed with this.
So, while the effort of obedience is very much required in a legitimate salvation experience, it by itself and without faith in Christ (the birth from above) leaves a person in that 'child of the slave woman' state who does not, and can not inherit the kingdom. This is the first birth, the one that, all by itself can not save a person. A person must ALSO be born again:
"...I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 NASB)
In the context of everything I've been sharing from the scriptures, we can see that the birth by water Jesus is saying that we must also have is obedience to the requirements of God, aka 'repentance'. Nicodemus, and lots of other Jews and gentiles probably have that already. That makes lots of sense. But for the life of me, I can't see any significance in your interpretation that Jesus is saying we must also be born a person as a requirement to enter the kingdom. You extending that to mean he's addressing Nic's confidence in his literal Jewish heritage doesn't define what he's actually talking about and which applies to all of us, not just Jews.
No, I realize that's exactly what I'm advocating. But it is the outward, fleshly repentance signified in John's baptism that I'm saying gives birth to flesh, not baptism into Christ through faith in Christ which gives birth to the spirit of a man.
We know that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, not just in the baptism of John for the remission of sins. See the difference? One births only natural children in the kingdom--children who will be purged out of the kingdom on the Day of Wrath. The other births spiritual children in the kingdom of God (but who are also 'repentant', like the natural children in the kingdom)--children who will be spared on the Day of Wrath and ushered into the kingdom of God. This is both Jesus' and Paul's warning to the Jews and the church.
You have to have both baptisms--both 'births'. You have to repent AND believe in Christ to see and enter into the kingdom of God.
So be careful to not miss that I'm saying outward repentance (which is still required even for the one who has faith in Christ) by itself is not enough to see the kingdom of God.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Did you miss when I said this?:
"Repentance is not sinless perfection. It's a change of mind, not only about who Christ is, but a change of mind about sin. When your mind changes about sin you don't choose to live in and rationalize a lifestyle of disobedience. You struggle with it and consciously determine to rid it from your life."
I can not be on line all day. I will come back later. In the meantime digest what I said above. This is hardly about sinless perfection. It's about a change of mind, but a change of mind that must also include faith in Christ, not just a determined effort to obey God like the Jews endorsed and was sure would save them, and which they tried to impress on the church. Both are needed to see the kingdom--repentance (read, obedience) AND faith in Christ. You need to be born both of water (signifying repentance) and born of the Spirit (signifying faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin) to enter into the kingdom of God on the Day of Judgment.
Change 'water' to mean natural birth and you lose this very valuable message from Jesus to the world.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You say you believe, but don't always believe in the same breath. How is that the believing on the Son of God for eternal life? You probably can't see this common disparity of thought you're sharing here. But it's common in the church.
"14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB)
It's a rhetorical question. And we know the obvious answer to it. But the church has decided James is wrong, because they think that would mean they endorse the works salvation Paul resists. Hardly true.
You're probably a Protestant, so you probably can't see how works are a required part of salvation, yet play no role in justifying a person. 'Justification' (the removal of sin guilt) is what is entirely accomplished apart from works. That hardly means the justified person shouldn't, or doesn't have to do works or else it would amount to trying to be justified (made good with God) by what they do.
Change 'water' to mean baptism and one has a very valuable tool for religion.
Being born from above is a second birth for sure, but born from above is much more descriptive and accurate to what really happens at the moment of salvation through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
water is used in the laver and in the tabernacle and later on in the temple as a ritual purification. water has a spiritual connotation to a Pharisee. So Jesus uses a term that connotes something spiritual - water.
“Except a man be born of water” - water is used to alert this man to the fact that this is a spiritual birth, not a physical birth. water has a spiritual connotation to the Pharisees.
The water has three spiritual connotations:
a) for salvation - ISA 55:1
b) the water of the Word -EPH 5:26
c) the water of the Holy Spirit - JOH 7:39.
ISA 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.”
JOH 7:38-39 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, “From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke of the Spirit,
“Spirit” = the water of the Word that is involved here. We know it is the water of the Word because in
1 Pe1:23 we are said to be born again or regenerated by the Word.
EPH 5:26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
“don’t be shocked, when I tell you, You must be born from above.”
The religious man believes that newness of life comes from below. He works to impress God from earth so his direction is backwards. The believer had non-meritorious faith and the new birth comes from above.
I’m a poor carpenter that you call teacher from a place of no reputation. You’re a PHD from Sanhedrin seminary and an acclaimed teacher to the Jews, and you don’t know this?
Being born from above is a second birth for sure, but born from above is much more descriptive and accurate to what really happens at the moment of salvation through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
water is used in the laver and in the tabernacle and later on in the temple as a ritual purification. water has a spiritual connotation to a Pharisee. So Jesus uses a term that connotes something spiritual - water.
“Except a man be born of water” - water is used to alert this man to the fact that this is a spiritual birth, not a physical birth. water has a spiritual connotation to the Pharisees.
The water has three spiritual connotations:
a) for salvation - ISA 55:1
b) the water of the Word -EPH 5:26
c) the water of the Holy Spirit - JOH 7:39.
ISA 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.”
JOH 7:38-39 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, “From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke of the Spirit,
“Spirit” = the water of the Word that is involved here. We know it is the water of the Word because in
1 Pe1:23 we are said to be born again or regenerated by the Word.
EPH 5:26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
“don’t be shocked, when I tell you, You must be born from above.”
The religious man believes that newness of life comes from below. He works to impress God from earth so his direction is backwards. The believer had non-meritorious faith and the new birth comes from above.
I’m a poor carpenter that you call teacher from a place of no reputation. You’re a PHD from Sanhedrin seminary and an acclaimed teacher to the Jews, and you don’t know this?