baptism for salvation?

[JLB]

I'm not teaching that because I've been saying 'water' is a metonymy for water baptism. Water represents repentance. Repentance precedes being born again.



Neither.

Repentance comes before the birth from above.

.

Of course it is neither.

I hope now you can finally see how utterly foolish it is to consider that "born of water" is a reference to Baptism in water.

The once indefensible doctrine of those that hold to this erroneous belief becomes chaff in the wind.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When we as gentiles are born again, we are children of Abraham.

Which position do you take, based on the order of the scripture that Jesus explained.

Born of water and the Spirit.

Is your belief you must be baptized in water first, then born again.

or

Baptism in water and the Spirit is simultaneous and we are born again when we are baptized in water.


I'm trying to understand your belief based on your interpretation of this scripture born of water.


JLB

I'm pretty sure it's clear in the post I made while you were posting.

But here it is again:

1. Repentance (according to the full message of Christ)

2. The second birth.

3. Water baptism as a public declaration of your decision to repent.


That's the general order. Biblically, there's no reason that they can not happen simultaneously. Because of the way we preach the gospel these days, in a true born again experience, repentance and salvation happen before water baptism.

If your repentance is not a repentance is not a repentance according to the message of Christ, then you have only been birthed according to the flesh. I challenge you to read Galatians 4 and see this is exactly what Paul is defining 'birthed after the flesh' to mean. Jesus calls it being 'born of water' which he says is 'flesh giving birth to flesh'. It is a birth as the result of just following the rules of God (repentance), of which the likes of Nicodemus and countless others put their confidence in, but who will be disappointed on the Day of Wrath when Christ cleanses his kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course it is neither.

I hope now you can finally see how utterly foolish it is to consider that "born of water" is a reference to Baptism in water.

The once indefensible doctrine of those that hold to this erroneous belief becomes chaff in the wind.


JLB

An explanation would be in order. I'm pretty sure I made my argument plain. Did you not understand it?

Show me you understood it by addressing it.

 

[JLB]

I'm pretty sure it's clear in the post I made while you were posting.

But here it is again:

1. Repentance (according to the full message of Christ)

2. The second birth.

3. Water baptism as a public declaration of your decision to repent.


That's the general order. Biblically, there's no reason that they can not happen simultaneously. Because of the way we preach the gospel these days, in a true born again experience, repentance and salvation happen before water baptism.

If your repentance is not a repentance is not a repentance according to the message of Christ, then you have only been birthed according to the flesh. I challenge you to read Galatians 4 and see this is exactly what Paul is defining 'birthed after the flesh' to mean. Jesus calls it being 'born of water' which he says is 'flesh giving birth to flesh'. It is a birth as the result of just following the rules of God (repentance), of which the likes of Nicodemus and countless others put their confidence in, but who will be disappointed on the Day of Wrath when Christ cleanses his kingdom.

... repentance and salvation happen before water baptism.

Exactly!!!

So the phrase; you must be born of water and the Spirit can not possibly refer to water baptism.

Otherwise we must be baptized in water first, as the order of Jesus words reads born of water [first] and the Spirit [next].

Lets put that in the scripture and see how your interpretation looks. -

You must be baptized in water and then born again to enter the kingdom of God.

That is exactly backwards.

Now if Jesus said - You must be born of the Spirit and of water to enter the kingdom of God, then that would be different.

The order is Born again through the incorruptible seed of the word of God, then we are baptized in water.

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth and has nothing to do with water baptism, as the scripture clearly reads

... for flesh gives birth to flesh.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... repentance and salvation happen before water baptism.

Exactly!!!

So the phrase; you must be born of water and the Spirit can not possibly refer to water baptism.

Yes it can when the water is referring to repentance. I've made this abundantly clear. How is it that you can not get this from what I'm saying? Water is a metonymy for water baptism, not the reality itself. Anybody can repent without being water baptized, and then take false confidence in that repentance, and that still be the first birth--a birth of 'flesh giving birth to flesh'--even though they did not go into the water.

Otherwise we must be baptized in water first, as the order of Jesus words reads born of water [first] and the Spirit [next].

Well, since I'm not saying the water is a literal water baptism, but is a metonymy for 'repentance', your argument is meaningless.

Lets put that in the scripture and see how your interpretation looks. -

You must be baptized in water and then born again to enter the kingdom of God.

That is exactly backwards.

But that's not what I've been saying. THIS is what I'm saying:

You must repent (figuratively speaking: born of water, because that is the custom closely associated with public repentance) and you must ALSO be born again (born of Spirit) to enter the kingdom of God. Got it?

Nicodemus had only the first birth down--the fleshly birth,what Paul calls being 'born after the flesh'. It is the fleshly effort at obedience--minus faith in Christ. Jesus said he would not see or enter the kingdom without this 'second' birth, which we now know clearly to be accomplished through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Now if Jesus said - You must be born of the Spirit and of water to enter the kingdom of God, then that would be different.

Well, since this is not the argument I'm making we don't need to address this.

The order is Born again through the incorruptible seed of the word of God, then we are baptized in water.

The water being used by Jesus is a metonymy, or metaphor for the repentant change of mind that precedes everything.

Do you understand my argument? I'm not asking you to agree with it. At this point, you need to just be able to understand the argument. You're showing you don't. So how can you begin to refute what I'm saying if you don't even understand my argument yet?

Born of water is a reference to natural child birth and has nothing to do with water baptism, as the scripture clearly reads

... for flesh gives birth to flesh.


JLB

And I showed you where Paul tells us what flesh giving birth to flesh means. But you apparently can't see that. The argument is not false just because you can't understand it. Understand the argument first, then examine it to see if it's false.


Now, I insist you answer the question I have asked at least two times now:

"When a gentile wanted to identify himself with the children of Abraham, God's people, what are some of the things that person would do?"

Just be honest. You know the answer, so answer the question. Then we'll go from there. If you calm down and start listening to what I'm saying you just might begin to understand what I've been saying.

By the way you've been responding I can tell you don't even understand what I'm saying, let alone able to refute it (how can you refute an argument you don't even understand?).

 

[JLB]

Yes it can when the water is referring to repentance. I've made this abundantly clear. How is it that you can not get this from what I'm saying? Water is a metonymy for water baptism, not the reality itself. Anybody can repent without being water baptized, and then take false confidence in that repentance, and that still be the first birth--a birth of 'flesh giving birth to flesh'--even though they did not go into the water.



Well, since I'm not saying the water is a literal water baptism, but is a metonymy for 'repentance', your argument is meaningless.



But that's not what I've been saying. THIS is what I'm saying:

You must repent (figuratively speaking: born of water, because that is the custom closely associated with public repentance) and you must ALSO be born again (born of Spirit) to enter the kingdom of God. Got it?

Nicodemus had only the first birth down--the fleshly birth,what Paul calls being 'born after the flesh'. It is the fleshly effort at obedience--minus faith in Christ. Jesus said he would not see or enter the kingdom without this 'second' birth, which we now know clearly to be accomplished through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.



Well, since this is not the argument I'm making we don't need to address this.



The water being used by Jesus is a metonymy, or metaphor for the repentant change of mind that precedes everything.

Do you understand my argument? I'm not asking you to agree with it. At this point, you need to just be able to understand the argument. You're showing you don't. So how can you begin to refute what I'm saying if you don't even understand my argument yet?



And I showed you where Paul tells us what flesh giving birth to flesh means. But you apparently can't see that. The argument is not false just because you can't understand it. Understand the argument first, then examine it to see if it's false.


Now, I insist you answer the question I have asked at least two times now:

"When a gentile wanted to identify himself with the children of Abraham, God's people, what are some of the things that person would do?"

Just be honest. You know the answer, so answer the question. Then we'll go from there. If you calm down and start listening to what I'm saying you just might begin to understand what I've been saying.

By the way you've been responding I can tell you don't even understand what I'm saying, let alone able to refute it (how can you refute an argument you don't even understand?).

So you are saying "born of water" is not a reference to water baptism?

What you are saying is "born of water" mean repentance?

Do I have that straight?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -
Anybody can repent without being water baptized, and then take false confidence in that repentance, and that still be the first birth--a birth of 'flesh giving birth to flesh'--even though they did not go into the water.

So from your perspective, the phrase - for flesh gives birth to flesh, is not a reference to physical birth?

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you are saying "born of water" is not a reference to water baptism?

What you are saying is "born of water" mean repentance?

Do I have that straight?

JLB

Yes. It is a reference to repentance, which was customarily publicly announced via water baptism--water baptism being so closely associated with repentance that to be water baptized means to repent. It's called a metonymy:

me·ton·y·my(mə-tŏn′ə-mē)
A figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated, as in the use of Washington for the United States government or of the sword for military power.

(from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metonymy)

The scriptures portray baptism as a death, a passage to a new, or different life. A birth of sorts. Thus the connection between Jesus' references to water and birth--water that gives birth--baptism. Baptism used as a metonymy for repentance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So from your perspective, the phrase - for flesh gives birth to flesh, is not a reference to physical birth?

JLB

Correct.

It's a reference to the birthing of a fleshly NON-SPIRITUAL person. Paul explains it as being the fleshly effort of a person (as opposed to 'having faith') giving birth to a fleshly, non-spiritual person. One who does not, and can not inherit the kingdom. He calls them the offspring of Hagar.

 

[veryberry]

John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is simply believing not enough for salvation?

Paul's gospel unto salvation for which we are saved by believing is found in 1 Cor 15:1-4
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Is this not the gospel that saves?

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Is Paul wrong? how come, he didn't say "to every one that repents, believeth and is baptised"?

 

[reba]

me·ton·y·my (mə-tŏn′ə-mē)
n. pl. me·ton·y·mies
A figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated, as in the use of Washington for the United States government or of the sword for military power.

 

[JLB]

Yes. It is a reference to repentance, which was customarily publicly announced via water baptism--water baptism being so closely associated with repentance that to be water baptized means to repent. It's called a metonymy:

me·ton·y·my(mə-tŏn′ə-mē)
A figure of speech in which one word or phrase is substituted for another with which it is closely associated, as in the use of Washington for the United States government or of the sword for military power.

(from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/metonymy)

The scriptures portray baptism as a death, a passage to a new, or different life. A birth of sorts. Thus the connection between Jesus' references to water and birth--water that gives
birth--baptism. Baptism used as a metonymy for repentance.

Then what you are saying is you believe born of water is a reference to baptism.

Which means you believe you must be baptized in water first then born again.

Sorry bro, it just doesn't fly.

For flesh gives BIRTH to flesh is a clear reference to natural birth.

For the Spirit gives BIRTH to spirit is a clear reference to spiritual birth.

CASE CLOSED !

JLB

 

[JLB]

Correct.

It's a reference to the birthing of a fleshly NON-SPIRITUAL person. Paul explains it as being the fleshly effort of a person (as opposed to 'having faith') giving birth to a fleshly, non-spiritual person. One who does not, and can not inherit the kingdom. He calls them the offspring of Hagar.

Sorry bro, the context is birth.

Natural birth and spiritual birth.

How does "one" give birth to a "fleshly non spiritual person" person ?

Birth is the subject matter, both natural and spiritual birth.

The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away, 25 But the word of the Lord endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. 1 Peter 1:22-24

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

This reference to natural birth , earthly thing, is teaching a principle of spiritual birth, heavenly things.

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:5-12

The earthly thing that Jesus refers to is natural birth... for flesh gives birth to flesh.

The heavenly thing that Jesus refers to is spiritual birth... for the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Testing

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 20:31 - But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 6:29 - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is simply believing not enough for salvation?

Believing all by itself is how we are justified (our sin record wiped clean). But believing that is not followed by a turning away from sin is believing that can not save.

The same John that penned the verses you shared above also said this:

"4 I have this against you, that you have left your first love.5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Revelation 2:4-5 NIV)

"‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." (Revelation 3:1-3 NIV)

There's no question that the same John who spoke at length about believing and salvation also warns the churches to not only believe, but also to repent, or be lost. These are deeds of faith that Jesus, through John, is warning us to have, or be rejected at the resurrection. John continues with this:

"4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:4-6 NIV)

I could fill pages with lots of other references in the Bible for the necessity of faith to be accompanied by works of faith in order for that faith to be of saving value. It is made abundantly clear in the Bible that salvation means faith and repentance, not faith with or without repentance as if repentance has no bearing on whether you'll be received into the kingdom at the resurrection or not (as is popularly taught in our churches today).

Paul's gospel unto salvation for which we are saved by believing is found in 1 Cor 15:1-4
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Is this not the gospel that saves?

Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Is Paul wrong? how come, he didn't say "to every one that repents, believeth and is baptised"?

Paul, like John, tells us to remember what we've heard, and continue to believe it, or be cut off from the olive tree of God's kingdom (heavenly kingdom). Paul says the only thing that counts towards justification is faith, but faith that finds expression in love for others (obedience to God)--Galatians 5:6b. It echoes James' teaching that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys and has love for others and can be seen in what it does, not just seen in what it says.

It's impossible to be saved with out repentance. But many people are counting on it. They will be disappointed on the day of Wrath. But Jesus has warned us ahead of time. And the Biblical question is, "do we have ears to hear?"

Repentance is not sinless perfection. It's a change of mind, not only about who Christ is, but a change of mind about sin. When your mind changes about sin you don't choose to live in and rationalize a lifestyle of disobedience. You struggle with it and consciously determine to rid it from your life. Faith not only justifies, but is also the power to do that. Faith is the victory that overcomes the world and leads us to obedience (1 John 5)--the overcoming that this same John says in Revelation is what determines if we will enter the kingdom or not at the resurrection.

 

[Rick W]

Repentance is not sinless perfection. It's a change of mind, not only about who Christ is, but a change of mind about sin.

Well said. Well said indeed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then what you are saying is you believe born of water is a reference to baptism.

No. 'Born of water' is a reference to the new life we are raised up to when we repent, symbolized in the act of water baptism. Paul speaks of this 'newness of life' through baptism here:

"4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4 NIV)

The point being, baptism is portrayed in the Bible as birthing new life. But without faith in Christ, the life born as a result of repentance, symbolized in water baptism, is only the natural 'birth' of a fleshly, unspiritual person--one who can not, and will not see or enter into the kingdom of God. We must also be born of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God and be saved. A baptism and birth of both water (repentance) AND Spirit. Nicodemus, and many other Jews had the 'water' part--the repentance part--down. What they lacked was the spiritual component necessary to inherit the kingdom. They were not born from above.

Which means you believe you must be baptized in water first then born again.

Only if I believe that the water Jesus is talking about is, and has to be, literal baptismal water. Which I don't. So I don't believe that you have to be literally water baptized then born again. I myself was born again and then water baptized two months later.

The birth of flesh Jesus is talking about is the fleshly, outward birth, or newness of life, of the one who has (tried) to obey God. The Judaizers are Paul's example of these fleshly, unspiritual children of Hagar who seek to obey God and are born in that sense, but who have not been born as a result of the promise--the spiritual birth.

Sorry bro, it just doesn't fly.

You'd see that it does if you could just see that I'm not saying literal water baptism is the birth by water Jesus is talking about, but rather the repentance that water baptism represents is the fleshly birth Jesus is talking about. That repentance is not enough (case in point--the Judaizers who seek to obey God, but reject justification through faith in Christ). You must also be born of faith in Christ and justification through his blood.

For flesh gives BIRTH to flesh is a clear reference to natural birth.

It's definitely a reference to birth. I've shown you how the Bible figuratively connects baptism and birth. John 3 is just another example of that figurative connection.

For the Spirit gives BIRTH to spirit is a clear reference to spiritual birth.

CASE CLOSED !

JLB

Okay, case closed for you.

I personally see no value in interpreting the water that births flesh as natural child birth. It has no significance. But when you understand the water that births flesh is outward repentance, symbolized by the commanded act of repentance-water baptism, it has much significance.

The significant point being, outward repentance is only half of what is needed to expect to see and enter into the kingdom of God. Many people, like Nicodemus and the Jews and many other people through all of human history understand that part well but are deceived into thinking that's enough to be saved. What they need to know is that is not enough. You must also be born again, from above, by the Spirit of God. Then you will be children of Sarah (figuratively, birthed to new life through the New Covenant) and will see and enter into the inheritance as a son and daughter, not cast out as a slave who does not inherit the Master's estate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's interesting that Jesus' teaching to the Jews about the necessity of faith in God's forgiveness in addition to their obedience to God is also useful to a present day church that understands the faith part very well, but have rejected the repentance part to the same degree the Jews have rejected the faith part.

"...unless one is born of water AND the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 NASB)

There is meaningful significance to the water representing the requirement for repentance. And it is consistent with the rest of scripture that says it is imperative that we not only believe but also repent outwardly. But the water being natural childbirth is a meaningless, unnecessary interpretation that adds nothing to the message of salvation. Why is it important that we know that we have to have a natural childbirth AND be born of the Spirit? But I can see how important it is that we know that we have to be born of the waters of repentance figuratively speaking AND born of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

No. 'Born of water' is a reference to the new life we are raised up to when we repent, symbolized in the act of water baptism. Paul speaks of this 'newness of life' through baptism here:

100% backwards.

Born again is a reference to the new life in Christ when we repent and believe the Gospel.


Born of water is a reference to natural birth.

Born again is a reference to spiritual birth.

You must be born, in order to be born again.

Natural birth is a "type" of baptism and teaches us a spiritual principle, which is a picture of us being baptized into Christ.

When we are born again we are baptized into Christ, by the Spirit.

Jesus taught us that natural birth [earthly things] teaches us of spiritual birth [heavenly things].

For the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

This takes place when we are born again, when we hear and believe the Gospel message.

This has nothing to do with water Baptism.

Paul taught us -

...all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 1 Corinthians 10:2

That is three Baptisms that Paul is referring to.

When we are born again, we are Baptized into Christ, or in the name of Christ... for the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Just as we are immersed in our mothers womb in water, which speaks of Baptism.

Now we are ready to be Baptized in water, which is symbolic of dying and being raised to new life. Just as the Father raised Him from the dead.

This is typified in the old testament as being Baptized in the sea. Which is Baptized in the Name of The Father.

The children of Israel "turned", repented from Egypt and the pharaoh and followed Moses [a type of Christ], they were "Baptized into Moses".

The went down [Baptized] in the sea. Baptized in the sea.

They were also Baptized in the cloud [ a type of Holy Spirit].

Baptized into Moses, the sea and the cloud... 1 Corinthians 10:2

All three are demonstrated in Acts 19.

Natural birth teaches us of Spiritual birth.

For flesh gives birth to flesh, and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.




JLB

 

[veryberry]

Yo

Believing all by itself is how we are justified (our sin record wiped clean). But believing that is not followed by a turning away from sin is believing that can not save.

The same John that penned the verses you shared above also said this:

"4 I have this against you, that you have left your first love.5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent." (Revelation 2:4-5 NIV)

"‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.3 So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you." (Revelation 3:1-3 NIV)

There's no question that the same John who spoke at length about believing and salvation also warns the churches to not only believe, but also to repent, or be lost. These are deeds of faith that Jesus, through John, is warning us to have, or be rejected at the resurrection. John continues with this:

"4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.5 He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:4-6 NIV)

I could fill pages with lots of other references in the Bible for the necessity of faith to be accompanied by works of faith in order for that faith to be of saving value. It is made abundantly clear in the Bible that salvation means faith and repentance, not faith with or without repentance as if repentance has no bearing on whether you'll be received into the kingdom at the resurrection or not (as is popularly taught in our churches today).



Paul, like John, tells us to remember what we've heard, and continue to believe it, or be cut off from the olive tree of God's kingdom (heavenly kingdom). Paul says the only thing that counts towards justification is faith, but faith that finds expression in love for others (obedience to God)--Galatians 5:6b. It echoes James' teaching that the faith that saves is the faith that obeys and has love for others and can be seen in what it does, not just seen in what it says.

It's impossible to be saved with out repentance. But many people are counting on it. They will be disappointed on the day of Wrath. But Jesus has warned us ahead of time. And the Biblical question is, "do we have ears to hear?"

Repentance is not sinless perfection. It's a change of mind, not only about who Christ is, but a change of mind about sin. When your mind changes about sin you don't choose to live in and rationalize a lifestyle of disobedience. You struggle with it and consciously determine to rid it from your life. Faith not only justifies, but is also the power to do that. Faith is the victory that overcomes the world and leads us to obedience (1 John 5)--the overcoming that this same John says in Revelation is what determines if we will enter the kingdom or not at the resurrection.

You don't believe in eternal security, which is different from once saved, always saved. This is another post. I agree a christian will live a life of repentance. I will address this post later in another post.