baptism for salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

The religious man believes that newness of life comes from below. He works to impress God from earth so his direction is backwards.

...a 'newness of life' of sorts, of which earthly ritual washing (Temple washings, and later, water baptism) signifies. But a birth into life that is still carnal, unspiritual. Correct?

It is a 'birth' that, alone, can not save a person, but a washing, or birth, that is, nonetheless, still required of the person who would also be born from above.

 

[JLB]

Are you ignoring the fact that the Galatians are obeying the law--IOW, they are repentant? Paul says that effort to be justified births a natural, unspiritual person for God, not a spiritual one. A child who ultimately is a slave to sin. A slave that doesn't inherit the kingdom as expected by the natural order of things (Paul calls it being born in the natural way). But that hardly means obedience to God is not required as the 'birth' a person must have to see the kingdom of God. Even if that wasn't what Jesus was talking about, I'd be surprised if you disagreed with this.

So, while the effort of obedience is very much required in a legitimate salvation experience, it by itself and without faith in Christ (the birth from above) leaves a person in that 'child of the slave woman' state who does not, and can not inherit the kingdom. This is the first birth, the one that, all by itself can not save a person. A person must ALSO be born again:

"...I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 NASB)

In the context of everything I've been sharing from the scriptures, we can see that the birth by water Jesus is saying that we must also have is obedience to the requirements of God, aka 'repentance'. Nicodemus, and lots of other Jews and gentiles probably have that already. That makes lots of sense. But for the life of me, I can't see any significance in your interpretation that Jesus is saying we must also be born a person as a requirement to enter the kingdom. You extending that to mean he's addressing Nic's confidence in his literal Jewish heritage doesn't define what he's actually talking about and which applies to all of us, not just Jews.

No, I realize that's exactly what I'm advocating. But it is the outward, fleshly repentance signified in John's baptism that I'm saying gives birth to flesh, not baptism into Christ through faith in Christ which gives birth to the spirit of a man.

We know that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, not just in the baptism of John for the remission of sins. See the difference? One births only natural children in the kingdom--children who will be purged out of the kingdom on the Day of Wrath. The other births spiritual children in the kingdom of God (but who are also 'repentant', like the
natural children in the kingdom)--children who will be spared on the Day of Wrath and ushered into the kingdom of God. This is both Jesus' and Paul's warning to the Jews and the church.

You have to have both baptisms--both 'births'. You have to repent AND believe in Christ to see and enter into the kingdom of God.

So be careful to not miss that I'm saying outward repentance (which is still required even for the one who has faith in Christ) by itself is not enough to see the kingdom of God.

Your postings are so far removed from the original subject matter, and become so complicated in your effort to try and cover your original misinterpretation of Jesus' words, that you don't even realize what your saying.

Your interpretation is.

Born of water (repentance) gives birth to a fleshly non spiritual person.

Totally and completely false and backwards.

What we learn from Jesus words are -

• You must first have a natural body to qualify to receive a spiritual body in order to enter the kingdom of God.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44

The spiritual body is not first, but the natural. Then afterward the spiritual.

• Spirits can not be born again and receive salvation.

• Natural birth in the bloodline of Abraham does not qualify them to enter the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[Webb]

Huh? I responded. Did you miss my post?

Also, perhaps you remember me telling you months ago how a one on one would just end up with you sharing your pre-programmed, unsupported doctrine and insisting we are to see what you say it says while ignoring the Biblically based refutation I present. IOW, a one on one will be a waste of valuable time. As I said, COC doctrine is defeated in just a few posts which I can make here.

Why do you not respond to what I say about this matter?

I haven't been able respond since post # 134 but thanks to Rick he corrected the problem.

Huh? I responded. Did you miss my post?

Also, perhaps you remember me telling you months ago how a one on one would just end up with you sharing your pre-programmed, unsupported doctrine and insisting we are to see what you say it says while ignoring the Biblically based refutation I present. IOW, a one on one will be a waste of valuable time. As I said, COC doctrine is defeated in just a few posts which I can make here.

Why do you not respond to what I say about this matter?

I haven't been able to post since your post # 134, thanks to Rick he has corrected the problem.

Jethro I haven't responded to your posts because I have and continue to invite you to discuss the matter on the one-on- and then you will find it will take more than as you say "JUST A FEW POSTS WHICH I CAN MAKE HERE" to '.' DEFEAT'' what the Bible teaches.

I would affirm something like the following: THE NT TEACHES THAT WATER BAPTISM WHICH IS BY IMMERSION IS FOR, IN ORDER TO, THE REMISSON OF SINS AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SUCH IS THE ONE BAPTISM OF EPHESIANS 4:5.

This invitation is not simply for Jethro but anyone so interested.
God bless,
w

 

[JLB]

I haven't been able respond since post # 134 but thanks to Rick he corrected the problem.


I haven't been able to post since your post # 134, thanks to Rick he has corrected the problem.

Jethro I haven't responded to your posts because I have and continue to invite you to discuss the matter on the one-on- and then you will find it will take more than as you say "JUST A FEW POSTS WHICH I CAN MAKE HERE" to '.' DEFEAT'' what the Bible teaches.

I would affirm something like the following: THE NT TEACHES THAT WATER BAPTISM WHICH IS BY IMMERSION IS FOR, IN ORDER TO, THE REMISSON OF SINS AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SUCH IS THE ONE BAPTISM OF EPHESIANS 4:5.

This invitation is not simply for Jethro but anyone so interested.
God bless,
w

Show me how to do a one on one discussion.

Part of what you are saying I believe to be true, however the NT does not teach we receive the Holy Spirit, as on the Day of Pentecost as well as acts 10 in the house of Cornelius, when we are baptized in water.

I also believe there are 3 baptisms that are The One baptism, as there are three expressions of the Godhead that are the One God.

So if you are opposed to this truth, lets discuss this in a one on one format.

I have never done this so you lead the way.

JLB

 

[Webb]

Show me how to do a one on one discussion.

Part of what you are saying I believe to be true, however the NT does not teach we receive the Holy Spirit, as on the Day of Pentecost as well as acts 10 in the house of Cornelius, when we are baptized in water.

I also believe there are 3 baptisms that are The One baptism, as there are three expressions of the Godhead that are the One God.

So if you are opposed to this truth, lets discuss this in a one on one format.

I have never done this so you lead the way.

Hi JLB--I have asked WIP to get us started. God bless, w

 

[Deborah13]

Oh, I thought you'd notice how I did my hair up today...both of them.

lol
Don't worry you know what they say. Grass doesn't grow on a busy street.

 

[Webb]

Hi JLB
I have asked WIP to set us up. Will keep you posted.
God bless,
w

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB
I have asked WIP to set us up. Will keep you posted.
God bless,
w

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro I haven't responded to your posts because I have and continue to invite you to discuss the matter on the one-on- and then you will find

Honestly I didn't notice because you do not respond with any analysis of what I say anyway. You seem bent on only reiterating your doctrine. I don't need to waste time in a one on one for you to do that and once again not taking the time to examine what I say about it.

I would affirm something like the following: THE NT TEACHES THAT WATER BAPTISM WHICH IS BY IMMERSION IS FOR, IN ORDER TO, THE REMISSON OF SINS AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SUCH IS THE ONE BAPTISM OF EPHESIANS 4:5.

Like I say you restate your beliefs over and over but never bother to cross examine opposing beliefs or answer legitimate challenges to your beliefs.

I showed you what 'one baptism' means in the context of both the immediate passage, and the context of the whole counsel of scripture, but you have yet to say anything about it. You just go back to saying what you say it means, not even addressing and answering the honest cross examination leveled against it. To me that's a sign of cultish indoctrination. It's like talking to a wall.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your interpretation is.

Born of water (repentance) gives birth to a fleshly non spiritual person.

Okay then, does repentance from dead works (without the new birth from above) give birth to a spiritual person?

Please don't just ignore my questions.

What we learn from Jesus words are -

• You must first have a natural body to qualify to receive a spiritual body in order to enter the kingdom of God.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44

The spiritual body is not first, but the natural. Then afterward the spiritual.

• Spirits can not be born again and receive salvation

You haven't shown us why this is important for us to know. That we are first born into a body kind of goes without saying. It has no spiritual significance that it has to be an official teaching of the church.

Natural birth in the bloodline of Abraham does not qualify them to enter the kingdom of God.
JLB

Nicodemus needs to know this, not me.

So explain what is meaningful for us gentiles in Jesus' words "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 NASB). Or explain to us gentiles how we might also take false comfort in being identified as a son of Abraham, expecting to enter the kingdom, but in reality will not. That's what I've been doing, but you fail to grasp what I'm saying.

We humans are not disembodied spirits that we have to be told that we have to be birthed into an earthly body first to inherit the kingdom. You are missing the meaningful issue Jesus is addressing in the passage about being 'born of water'.


Let's talk about the point the Bible is making when it talks about 'natural first, spiritual second'. Then you will see you are applying an understanding to it that the Bible is not teaching about that. I challenge you to examine Paul's discourse in 1 Corinthians 15 to see what the point of 'natural first, spiritual second' is referring to. And it isn't just that we are born into a body. The birth in the image of Adam means something. Just as being born in the image of Christ means something, too.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Okay then, does repentance from dead works (without the new birth from above) give birth to a spiritual person?

Again, you are mixing together the doctrine that comes from John 3:5-6, which is born again by the Spirit, together with a completely different subject that is addressed to a completely different group of people.

John 3:5-6 deals with initial salvation.

Hebrews 6:1 is addressing Hebrew Christians.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2

I will say again, you have left the elementary discussion of initial salvation, and blended several concepts that are meant for people who are already Christians.

For flesh gives birth to flesh is a simple reference to natural birth.

For the Spirit gives birth to spirit, is a reference to spiritual birth, which is referring to initial salvation, or being born again.

Repentance from dead works has nothing to do with initial salvation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

You haven't shown us why this is important for us to know. That we are first born into a body kind of goes without saying. It has no spiritual significance that it has to be an official teaching of the church.

The importance in knowing this is:

The term born of water has been falsely associated with water baptism, and has resulted in countless false conversions.

Those who are wanting to be born again and serve God, as well as receive His Spirit are taught that all of that takes place when you are baptized in water.

We are not born again just because we are baptized in water.

We do not receive the Holy Spirit just because we are baptized in water.

We are born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which is the Gospel message.

When we are born again, then we are baptized for the purpose of being united together with Christ in the likeness of His death, so that we will also be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.

When we are baptized in water, we are baptized into His death, that we may be free from sin.

For he who has died has been freed from sin. Romans 6:7

Not receive the remission of sins, but that we might be freed from sin.

We receive the remission of sin, or better said; our sins are taken away, when we repent.

To repent, not of our sins, but repent of Satan and his kingdom, that we would be translated out of his kingdom into the kingdom of God.

We turn away from Satan as our lord, and confess Jesus as our Lord.

That is what repent means; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

When we repent and are born again, we are converted to Gods Kingdom.

We now have been given a new Divine Nature that is compatible with God, and can be filled with His Spirit.

Some denominations teach that to be born again, as Jesus taught in John 3, that you are to be baptized in water, and you will automatically receive the Holy Spirit.

This is a false doctrine.

This leads a person to a false salvation.

The person is not born again and has not received the Holy Spirit, yet they think they have.

Now it is almost impossible to ever convince them them of the truth as they are convinced they have something that they do not.


That is my point in this discussion.


JLB

 

[veryberry]

You say you believe, but don't always believe in the same breath. How is that the believing on the Son of God for eternal life? You probably can't see this common disparity of thought you're sharing here. But it's common in the church.



"14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14 NASB)

It's a rhetorical question. And we know the obvious answer to it. But the church has decided James is wrong, because they think that would mean they endorse the works salvation Paul resists. Hardly true.

You're probably a Protestant, so you probably can't see how works are a required part of salvation, yet play no role in justifying a person. 'Justification' (the removal of sin guilt) is what is entirely accomplished apart from works. That hardly means the justified person shouldn't, or doesn't have to do works or else it would amount to trying to be justified (made good with God) by what they do.

There are different degrees of faith. You can have tiny faith or full faith and all in between. But believing is all or nothing. You either do or you don't. You can have more faith then me, does that mean that you are more saved then me?

I am a bible believer. I believe that a Christian should work for the Lord Jesus Christ and that salvation is not a free pass to sin. I believe Paul teaches Christians how they should live, and the Christians today(if they are indeed Christians) are not doing so. But if they are Christians can we really say that they are or are not saved? If one does not meet your standards of work, are they not saved? What is Gods standard of work? John 6:29 - ...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. A person with little faith will work less then a person with great faith(which none of us have). Is there a difference in salvation? But, if I see a professing Christian in sin, I will rebuke and reprove them. This is exactly what is missing today and is a big reason why we live in apostasy today.
Christians have become so scared with the "don't want to offend anyone" mentality.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, you are mixing together the doctrine that comes from John 3:5-6, which is born again by the Spirit, together with a completely different subject that is addressed to a completely different group of people.

John 3:5-6 deals with initial salvation.

Uh......you didn't answer my question. Why? But I suppose you won't answer that question either, right? I really have to stop asking questions that you simply aren't going to answer, don't I? Arg! There I go again......

Hebrews 6:1 is addressing Hebrew Christians.

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2

I will say again, you have left the elementary discussion of initial salvation, and blended several concepts that are meant for people who are already Christians.

Hebrews 6???????? Why are you bringing that into the discussion? And I'm the one that's confused?

For flesh gives birth to flesh is a simple reference to natural birth.

Oh, I see now. So Paul is saying legalistic obedience to the requirements of God before and without faith in Christ births actual, literal children:

"23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar." (Galatians 4:23-24 NASB)

Thank you, that makes it much clearer now. 'Born according to the flesh' means actual child birth. And I thought the birth according to the flesh through legalistic obedience to the requirements of God was speaking allegorically of something else. Glad you cleared that up for me. (Although my conscience is bothering me 'cause it does seem Paul said it's allegorical....but oh well, that prick of conscience will go away if I resist it long enough, I'm sure).

For the Spirit gives birth to spirit, is a reference to spiritual birth, which is referring to initial salvation, or being born again.

Gee. Glad you straightened us all out on that point. You must be born again to be saved. Got it.

Repentance from dead works has nothing to do with initial salvation.

I know. That's what the Protestant church has been hammering us with for a while now. It isn't necessary to repent in order to be saved. But thank you for reminding me so I don't get off on some tangent that somehow we have to repent if we want to expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. That would be nothing more than a damnable works gospel. Can't go there now, can we?

Which is so weird because the Bible talks a lot about an opposite problem--people who think repentance alone ensures their place in the kingdom of God, not knowing they must also be born 'again' by the Spirit, not just devote themselves to the futile attempt at a repentant lifestyle without the Spirit (which births natural children--no wonder so many Protestants avoid repentance). My how times change.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Uh......you didn't answer my question. Why? But I suppose you won't answer that question either, right? I really have to stop asking questions that you simply aren't going to answer, don't I? Arg! There I go again......

I answered your question with the scriptures that show repentance from dead works, has nothing to do with the initial salvation experience, which is called being born again.

Jethro said -

You haven't shown us why this is important for us to know. That we are first born into a body kind of goes without saying. It has no spiritual significance that it has to be an official teaching of the church.

Here is what reasons are again -

What we learn from Jesus words are -

• You must first have a natural body to qualify to receive a spiritual body in order to enter the kingdom of God.

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:44

The spiritual body is not first, but the natural. Then afterward the spiritual.

• Spirits can not be born again and receive salvation.

• Natural birth in the bloodline of Abraham does not qualify them to enter the kingdom of God.

The main reason -

The term born of water has been falsely associated with water baptism, and has resulted in countless false conversions.

Those who are wanting to be born again and serve God, as well as receive His Spirit are taught that all of that takes place when you are baptized in water.

We are not born again just because we are baptized in water.

We do not receive the Holy Spirit just because we are baptized in water.

We are born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which is the Gospel message.

When we are born again, then we are baptized for the purpose of being united together with Christ in the likeness of His death, so that we will also be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.

When we are baptized in water, we are baptized into His death, that we may be free from sin.

For he who has died has been freed from sin. Romans 6:7

Not receive the remission of sins, but that we might be freed from sin.

We receive the remission of sin, or better said; our sins are taken away, when we repent.

To repent, not of our sins, but repent of Satan and his kingdom, that we would be translated out of his kingdom into the kingdom of God.

We turn away from Satan as our lord, and confess Jesus as our Lord.

That is what repent means; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

When we repent and are born again, we are converted to Gods Kingdom.

We now have been given a new Divine Nature that is compatible with God, and can be filled with His Spirit.

Some denominations teach that to be born again, as Jesus taught in John 3, that you are to be baptized in water, and you will automatically receive the Holy Spirit.

This is a false doctrine.

This leads a person to a false salvation.

The person is not born again and has not received the Holy Spirit, yet they think they have.

Now it is almost impossible to ever convince them them of the truth as they are convinced they have something that they do not.


That is my point in this discussion.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The importance in knowing this is:

The term born of water has been falsely associated with water baptism, and has resulted in countless false conversions.

I agree. That's why I came up with this crazy idea that water be identified with 'repentance'. But it falls on deaf ears because so many people in the church have been programmed to reject any notion of repentance being a necessary part of a born again experience because that would be a works gospel.

We are not born again just because we are baptized in water.

You know what? I think that's what Jesus was trying to say. What a coincidence.

We do not receive the Holy Spirit just because we are baptized in water.

You know what? I'm guessing that's why Jesus said we also have to be born 'again'.

We are born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which is the Gospel message.

You know what's weird, JLB? How the promise of God can still birth an Esau and a Jacob in the same womb. Esau being born first--an earthly worldly man who doesn't inherit his Father's blessing--and Jacob being born second who does inherit the Father's blessing, against all our natural and expected human thinking about how that's supposed to happen. You don't suppose God is trying to tell us something, do you? I've seen other examples of this in the Bible. Nah. Never mind. Probably just a dead end doctrine not worth examining.

When we are born again, then we are baptized for the purpose of being united together with Christ in the likeness of His death, so that we will also be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection.

But what happens if you get water baptized without being born again? What kind of birth is that? A natural, unspiritual birth perhaps? A person not united with Christ and in the likeness of his resurrection who doesn't inherit the kingdom? I know that's crazy talk, but hey, I'm the confused one here, right?

We receive the remission of sin, or better said; our sins are taken away, when we repent.

You know this sounds a lot like what that Jethro guy has been saying.

To repent, not of our sins, but repent of Satan and his kingdom, that we would be translated out of his kingdom into the kingdom of God.

But I thought sin was dwelling with satan in his kingdom? And when we turn our backs on sin and to the forgiveness of God and the power of the Spirit we escape his kingdom. Silly me. I have so much to learn.

We turn away from Satan as our lord, and confess Jesus as our Lord.

That is what repent means; Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

It's weird how people did that in John's baptism, but still were not born again. That's how I came up with the silly idea that Jesus was saying we must also be born again, by the Spirit, not just by, figuratively speaking, the waters of repentance.

Some denominations teach that to be born again, as Jesus taught in John 3, that you are to be baptized in water, and you will automatically receive the Holy Spirit.

Hey, I bet Webb would love to hammer this out with you.

This is a false doctrine.

This leads a person to a false salvation.

The person is not born again and has not received the Holy Spirit, yet they think they have.

Even if they really do believe in Christ, too, and not just repent of their sins, and really do receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism? What happened in the Bible was just a special time for that to happen? Interesting.

 

[JLB]

J

ethro said -

You know what's weird, JLB? How the promise of God can still birth an Esau and a Jacob in the same womb. Esau being born first--an earthly worldly man who doesn't inherit his Father's blessing--and Jacob being born second who does inherit the Father's blessing, against all our natural and expected human thinking about how that's supposed to happen. You don't suppose God is trying to tell us something, do you? I've seen other examples of this in the Bible. Nah. Never mind. Probably just a dead end doctrine not worth examining.

Good seed can not produce bad fruit.

Good seed in bad ground will produce no fruit.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Even if they really do believe in Christ, too, and not just repent of their sins, and really do receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism? What happened in the Bible was just a special time for that to happen? Interesting.

Please show the scripture you are referring to, and explain the point you are trying to make.

Here is a clue: Jesus did not need to be born again. His Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.

Sinless.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are different degrees of faith. You can have tiny faith or full faith and all in between. But believing is all or nothing. You either do or you don't. You can have more faith then me, does that mean that you are more saved then me?

I see the point you're making, but James asks if what you are calling lesser faith can save a person. Explain what you're saying in light of that.

Me thinks he's not talking about weak vs. strong faith. He's talking about a matter that has a connection to salvation itself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro said -

Even if they really do believe in Christ, too, and not just repent of their sins, and really do receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism? What happened in the Bible was just a special time for that to happen? Interesting.

Please show the scripture you are referring to...

The book of Acts, lol.

...and explain the point you are trying to make.

People really were water baptized and received the Spirit exactly the way COC doctrine teaches. I personally knew a person (maybe another, can't remember) who got saved the way COC says ALL conversions happen (but which the Bible shows us is not true of all conversions).

You are definitely not ready to take Webb on in a one-on-one.

Here is a clue: Jesus did not need to be born again. His Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.

Sinless.


JLB

I don't get your cryptic reference here. But it shows me you are definitely not ready to take Webb on. Don't do it. He'll chew you up and spit you out like so many Christians who think they are equipped to take on the itinerant Jehovah's Witness that knocks on their door. They are more prepared with their false doctrine than most Christians are with the truth.