baptism for salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

J


Good seed can not produce bad fruit.

Good seed in bad ground will produce no fruit.


JLB

We know this to be true in regard to Jesus' teaching in the NT.

But what does it mean that the seed of Isaac also produced an Esau? In effect, the same word of God about the kingdom produced in Rebecca a man that would NOT inherit the kingdom, but later a man born later who WOULD. I know I'm maladjusted and just plain crazy, but you don't suppose God is trying to tell us something about this crazy struggle that goes on inside his people when they hear the promise, do ya?

"21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why then am I this way?” So she went to inquire of theLord. 23 The Lord said to her,

“Two nations are in your womb;
And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And the older shall serve the younger.”

24 When her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 Now the first came forth red, all over like a hairy garment; and they named him Esau." (Genesis 25:21-25 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro said -

Even if they really do believe in Christ, too, and not just repent of their sins, and really do receive the Holy Spirit at their water baptism? What happened in the Bible was just a special time for that to happen? Interesting.


Here is a clue: Jesus did not need to be born again. His Spirit is the Spirit of the Lord.

Sinless.


JLB

Actually I do get your cryptic point.

Here's mine:

John at first refused to baptize him. Why?

 

[Webb]

Honestly I didn't notice because you do not respond with any analysis of what I say anyway. You seem bent on only reiterating your doctrine. I don't need to waste time in a one on one for you to do that and once again not taking the time to examine what I say about it.



Like I say you restate your beliefs over and over but never bother to cross examine opposing beliefs or answer legitimate challenges to your beliefs.

I showed you what 'one baptism' means in the context of both the immediate passage, and the context of the whole counsel of scripture, but you have yet to say anything about it. You just go back to saying what you say it means, not even addressing and answering the honest cross examination leveled against it. To me that's a sign of cultish indoctrination. It's like talking to a wall.

No matter. JLB will do what you apparently are afraid of, the one-on-one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No matter. JLB will do what you apparently are afraid of, the one-on-one.

Like talking to a JW, it will be a useless, futile, waste of time. You'll see. I mean, you won't see...but that is what the outcome will be.

I used to think it important to engage hardened indoctrinations outside of the church. Now I only directly engage them when those teachings try to make inroads among believers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Cultish doctines thrive on being able to draw potential recruits off by themselves where the power of that doctrine can be focused and not interrupted.

Jesus spoke openly and publicly to those he wanted to reach. He taught his own disciples in private. We can learn from that. I could say more about how cult doctrines operate, but I won't. The important thing is to keep those doctrines out in the open where their power is reduced.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe everybody who turns to Christ should be water baptized. But to turn it into a legalistic switch that turns on salvation is simply unBiblical at best, a deceitful disguise for a works oriented justification at worst.

 

[Webb]

Cultish doctines thrive on being able to draw potential recruits off by themselves where the power of that doctrine can be focused and not interrupted.

Jesus spoke openly and publicly to those he wanted to reach. He taught his own disciples in private. We can learn from that. I could say more about how cult doctrines operate, but I won't. The important thing is to keep those doctrines out in the open where their power is reduced.

Dear sir--The one-on-on is very public, anyone, ANYONE can read it. The great advantage is we don't have interruptions, etc. But such is your choice and you may live with it, but I think you are whistling in the dark here.
God bless,
w

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"...I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”13 as Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:10-13 NASB)


"...I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:1-4 NASB)

'One baptism' means the unity of the one Christ we have been baptized into. It does not mean 'everything happens at one moment in time in one water baptism'. That's not even the subject he is addressing in the passage.

 

[JLB]

I believe everybody who turns to Christ should be water baptized. But to turn it into a legalistic switch that turns on salvation is simply unBiblical at best, a deceitful disguise for a works oriented justification at worst.

To believe is to obey.

If you believe the Gospel you will obey the Gospel.

Unbelief and disobedience are the same word in the Greek.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

It could just as well read -

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you obey Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Which could just as well read -

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you heed the commandments of Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Which is to say, do what He whom God sent, tells you to do. Obey.

If you believe Him, you will obey what he says. What He says is called a command.

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Mark 16:15-18


who does not believe will not get Baptized...

who does not believe will not cast out devils...

who does not believe will not speak with new tongues, because they don't believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

They are not empowered by the Holy Spirit to do the things that Jesus said they would do if they believe.

Jesus said -

The works that I do you also shall do.

From what I read, The Gospel has a lot of works going on by those who believe.

Not the works of the law. For the law is not of faith.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The works that I do you also shall do.

From what I read, The Gospel has a lot of works going on by those who believe.

Not the works of the law. For the law is not of faith.

You were doing good until you got to here.

I see the commandments of the law being taught in the NT. Not all of them, for the literal worship and separation laws were satisfied by the finished work of Christ and credited to our account through our faith in that work.

Don't carry a grudge against the requirements of the law. Carry a grudge against the old WAY we used to fulfill the requirements of the law in the Old Covenant--by the power of flesh alone, and in regard to the worship and separation laws, by way of the elemental things of creation.

 

[JLB]

"...I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”13 as Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:10-13 NASB)


"...I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:1-4 NASB)

'One baptism' means the unity of the one Christ we have been baptized into. It does not mean 'everything happens at one moment in time in one water baptism'. That's not even the subject he is addressing in the passage.

I agree with your statement - It does not mean 'everything happens at one moment in time in one water baptism'.

Notice what Paul says -

Or were you Baptized in the name of Paul.

The point being, they were not baptized in the name of Paul, They were in fact Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here we see that expression in Acts 19 -

1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

... And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized? So they said, "Into John's baptism."

They had been Baptized in water. That was John's Baptism.

John's Baptism was from God and valid.

Then Paul said -
...they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These had already been Baptized in water.

They were not baptized in water again, they were born again, that is to say there spirit was made alive and compatible to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

As the next verse proves this - ... when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues.

They could not be filled with the Holy Spirit if they were not born again. They were not born again by John's Baptism

The point is, being Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is what happens when we believe and are born again. This Baptism is separate from water baptism.

Being Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is the One baptism by which we are Baptized into One Body.

It is being Baptized into Christ.

The problem with that is - When you Baptize someone in water, they are baptized in the name of Jesus, not the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

As we see in Acts 10, this is a reference to water baptism.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is this expression again -

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 8:14-16

Though these verse do not speak of water baptism, what is clear is they had not received the Holy Spirit when they had been Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Which clearly proves that they had not received the Holy Spirit at Baptism, as you stated.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You were doing good until you got to here.

I see the commandments of the law being taught in the NT. Not all of them, for the literal worship and separation laws were satisfied by the finished work of Christ and credited to our account through our faith in that work.

Don't carry a grudge against the requirements of the law. Carry a grudge against the old WAY we used to fulfill the requirements of the law in the Old Covenant--by the power of flesh alone, and in regard to the worship and separation laws, by way of the elemental things of creation.

Gods laws are taught in the New testament, I agree.

Jesus' commandments to obey the Gospel in the New Testament under Grace, carry more weight than Moses Law.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

Let's stick to the context of the OP.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point is, being Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus is what happens when we believe and are born again. This Baptism is separate from water baptism.

You'd better be prepared to acknowledge that people also received the Spirit at their water baptism in Acts if you think you are ready to talk about this with Weeb.

The fact that their are these examples of the two baptisms being separate events is what pulls the rug out from under COC doctrine. And they cling to Ephesians 4 as some kind of definitive proof that the Spirit is never given apart from water baptism but we can plainly see that is not even the subject Paul is addressing there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which clearly proves that they had not received the Holy Spirit at Baptism, as you stated.

Who stated? It wasn't me. I know clearly that people received the Spirit apart from their water baptism in the Bible.

I myself received the Spirit and then was water baptized two months later.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's stick to the context of the OP.


JLB

Yes. So no more jabs about the law, please.

 

[JLB]

You'd better be prepared to acknowledge that people also received the Spirit at their water baptism in Acts if you think you are ready to talk about this with Weeb.

The fact that their are these examples of the two baptisms being separate events is what pulls the rug out from under COC doctrine. And they cling to Ephesians 4 as some kind of definitive proof that the Spirit is never given apart from water baptism but we can plainly see that is not even the subject Paul is addressing there.

Agreed. Physical water has no ability to bring about the spiritual reality of being joined to the Lord.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


JLB

 

[JLB]

You'd better be prepared to acknowledge that people also received the Spirit at their water baptism in Acts if you think you are ready to talk about this with Weeb.

Chapter and verse please.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chapter and verse please.


JLB

38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38,39,41 NASB)

If these people did not receive the Spirit when they believed, repented, and were baptized then Peter is a liar and a false prophet, plain and simple.

Can we make hard and fast, legalistic doctrine out of this on how and when God gives the Holy Spirit? No way.

Can we use Ephesians 4 to prove that we can? Absolutely not. That's not even what Ephesians 4 is about.

 

[JLB]

38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38,39,41 NASB)

If these people did not receive the Spirit when they believed, repented, and were baptized then Peter is a liar and a false prophet, plain and simple.

Can we make hard and fast, legalistic doctrine out of this on how and when God gives the Holy Spirit? No way.

Can we use Ephesians 4 to prove that we can? Absolutely not. That's not even what Ephesians 4 is about.

Repent and believe the Gospel is where you are born again, which then makes you eligible to receive the Holy Spirit, as acts 19 teaches us.

Being Baptized in water does not make you eligible to receive the Spirit, only being born again does.

When you are born again, you are in fact baptized into Christ.

Furthermore, the statement that Peters makes; and you will receive, does not by any means means it will happen automatically with water baptism.

What Peter is saying If you want what you just saw us get then here is what you need to do.


JLB