Jethro Bodine
Member
Then wait until you get in a church that has a pastor you think is following after Christ.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
baptism for salvation?
- Thread starter Mark1616
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, in the sense that repentance, in regard to the actual turning away from sin, is the cleansing of a man.
Wow whoa guys .... there are some posts here that need some cleaning up.....
Who ever has not read the TOS needs to and if you have a refresher might be nice....
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/terms-of-service/ ADMIN
Who ever has not read the TOS needs to and if you have a refresher might be nice....
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?pages/terms-of-service/ ADMIN
20 posts have been deleted The topic is not tongues.....Stay on topic.... Be careful of calling a brother/sister false.... etc...
In the words of our Lord Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
A paragraph of the terms you agreed to when you signed on ....
2.4: ...... Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
I think a bit more editing will be done tomorrow....
In the words of our Lord Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
A paragraph of the terms you agreed to when you signed on ....
2.4: ...... Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
I think a bit more editing will be done tomorrow....
Very good advice kiwidan
Kiwidan, what church are you going to that you know of these false teachings?
You continually say you don't trust churches and you don't trust pastors but you also say you never go to church.
What's up with that?
Navigator
Member
Alright dude, it's obvious we're not getting anywhere here. You've still never explained why born of water would signify a simple birth of a human being, while born of water and blood would mean supernatural birth by Mary. I understand the Spiritual birth is not first and never claimed that to be the case. You're simply not explaining how or why coming by water and blood would also mean a birth, like what the difference between the supernatural birth and natural birth is and why John would use different terminology or at least the terminology he chooses here.
Born of water is a reference to natural birth when a child comes into the world, the woman's water breaks and the baby is born into this world.
He came water water and blood, not by water only, but by water and blood, is a reference to the supernatural birth of The messiah whereby He came into this world when Mary's water and hymein broke as he came into this world.
The Spirit bears witness to this Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ.
JLB
Navigator
Member
So you need to figure out what you think the Spirit would bear witness about: The virgin birth of Jesus, or His baptism and crucifixion..
This is a Matthew Henry commentary expounding on the latter, and the perspective I take. That explanation of the water and blood representing a virgin birth just doesn't match up with how people described a birth back then.
"We are inwardly and outwardly defiled; inwardly, by the power and pollution of sin in our nature. For our cleansing there is in and by Christ Jesus, the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Some think that the two sacraments are here meant: baptism with water, as the outward sign of regeneration, and purifying from the pollution of sin by the Holy Spirit; and the Lord's supper, as the outward sign of the shedding Christ's blood, and the receiving him by faith for pardon and justification. Both these ways of cleansing were represented in the old ceremonial sacrifices and cleansings. This water and blood include all that is necessary to our salvation. By the water, our souls are washed and purified for heaven and the habitation of saints in light. By the blood, we are justified, reconciled, and presented righteous to God. By the blood, the curse of the law being satisfied, the purifying Spirit is obtained for the internal cleansing of our natures. The water, as well as the blood, came out of the side of the sacrificed Redeemer. He loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word; that he might present it to himself a glorious church, Ephesians 5:25-27. This was done in and by the Spirit of God, according to the Saviour's declaration. He is the Spirit of God, and cannot lie. Three had borne witness to these doctrines concerning the person and the salvation of Christ. The Father, repeatedly, by a voice from heaven declared that Jesus was his beloved Son. The Word declared that He and the Father were One, and that whoever had seen him had seen the Father. And the Holy Ghost, who descended from heaven and rested on Christ at his baptism; who had borne witness to Him by all the prophets; and gave testimony to his resurrection and mediatorial office, by the gift of miraculous powers to the apostles. But whether this passage be cited or not, the doctrine of the Trinity in Unity stands equally firm and certain. To the doctrine taught by the apostles, respecting the person and salvation of Christ, there were three testimonies. 1. The Holy Spirit. We come into the world with a corrupt, carnal disposition, which is enmity to God. This being done away by the regeneration and new-creating of souls by the Holy Spirit, is a testimony to the Saviour. 2. The water: this sets forth the Saviour's purity and purifying power. The actual and active purity and holiness of his disciples are represented by baptism. 3. The blood which he shed: and this was our ransom, this testifies for Jesus Christ; it sealed up and finished the sacrifices of the Old Testament. The benefits procured by his blood, prove that he is the Saviour of the world. No wonder if he that rejects this evidence is judged a blasphemer of the Spirit of God. These three witnesses are for one and the same purpose; they agree in one and the same thing."
This is a Matthew Henry commentary expounding on the latter, and the perspective I take. That explanation of the water and blood representing a virgin birth just doesn't match up with how people described a birth back then.
"We are inwardly and outwardly defiled; inwardly, by the power and pollution of sin in our nature. For our cleansing there is in and by Christ Jesus, the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Some think that the two sacraments are here meant: baptism with water, as the outward sign of regeneration, and purifying from the pollution of sin by the Holy Spirit; and the Lord's supper, as the outward sign of the shedding Christ's blood, and the receiving him by faith for pardon and justification. Both these ways of cleansing were represented in the old ceremonial sacrifices and cleansings. This water and blood include all that is necessary to our salvation. By the water, our souls are washed and purified for heaven and the habitation of saints in light. By the blood, we are justified, reconciled, and presented righteous to God. By the blood, the curse of the law being satisfied, the purifying Spirit is obtained for the internal cleansing of our natures. The water, as well as the blood, came out of the side of the sacrificed Redeemer. He loved the church, and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word; that he might present it to himself a glorious church, Ephesians 5:25-27. This was done in and by the Spirit of God, according to the Saviour's declaration. He is the Spirit of God, and cannot lie. Three had borne witness to these doctrines concerning the person and the salvation of Christ. The Father, repeatedly, by a voice from heaven declared that Jesus was his beloved Son. The Word declared that He and the Father were One, and that whoever had seen him had seen the Father. And the Holy Ghost, who descended from heaven and rested on Christ at his baptism; who had borne witness to Him by all the prophets; and gave testimony to his resurrection and mediatorial office, by the gift of miraculous powers to the apostles. But whether this passage be cited or not, the doctrine of the Trinity in Unity stands equally firm and certain. To the doctrine taught by the apostles, respecting the person and salvation of Christ, there were three testimonies. 1. The Holy Spirit. We come into the world with a corrupt, carnal disposition, which is enmity to God. This being done away by the regeneration and new-creating of souls by the Holy Spirit, is a testimony to the Saviour. 2. The water: this sets forth the Saviour's purity and purifying power. The actual and active purity and holiness of his disciples are represented by baptism. 3. The blood which he shed: and this was our ransom, this testifies for Jesus Christ; it sealed up and finished the sacrifices of the Old Testament. The benefits procured by his blood, prove that he is the Saviour of the world. No wonder if he that rejects this evidence is judged a blasphemer of the Spirit of God. These three witnesses are for one and the same purpose; they agree in one and the same thing."