Baptism in the Spirit: The experience

[Alfred Persson]

REVELATORY GIFTS: ALL FOR THE COMMON GOOD (1 CORINTHIANS 12:8-10)

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (1 Cor. 13:8 NKJ)

News alert: Just as Paul predicted, these revelatory gifts "failed...ceased...vanished" in the 1st century.

You want to prove your case but don't know the rules for making a convincing argument. If the Bible doesn't explicitly or implicitly teach xyz, its "unscriptural." Only your opinion xyz is true.

Amazon.com: A Rulebook for Arguments: 9781624666872: Weston, Anthony: Books

Amazon.com: A Rulebook for Arguments: 9781624666872: Weston, Anthony: Books

smile.amazon.com

 

[eddif]

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (1 Cor. 13:8 NKJ)

News alert: Just as Paul predicted, these revelatory gifts "failed...ceased...vanished" in the 1st century.

You want to prove your case but don't know the rules for making a convincing argument. If the Bible doesn't explicitly or implicitly teach xyz, its "unscriptural." Only your opinion xyz is true.

Amazon.com: A Rulebook for Arguments: 9781624666872: Weston, Anthony: Books

Amazon.com: A Rulebook for Arguments: 9781624666872: Weston, Anthony: Books

smile.amazon.com

Job’s friends had convincing arguments. Job had (rebuttal?) responses.

The end of the book we find the friends were wrong and Job spoke the truth.

Agape love is not the same as filius love. And I am not a Greek scholar. The spiritual gifts were given to be able to witness on this earth plane.
As a redneck I can not even explain what I just said. In eternity we will have depended on God’s love. IMHO at the end of time is when the word of knowledge and word of wisdom etc will pass away.
This is possibly just an (opinion?). I will let y’all pass judgement on what I said.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

Job’s friends had convincing arguments. Job had (rebuttal?) responses.

The end of the book we find the friends were wrong and Job spoke the truth.

Agape love is not the same as filius love. And I am not a Greek scholar. The spiritual gifts were given to be able to witness on this earth plane.
As a redneck I can not even explain what I just said. In eternity we will have depended on God’s love. IMHO at the end of time is when the word of knowledge and word of wisdom etc will pass away.
This is possibly just an (opinion?). I will let y’all pass judgement on what I said.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

The $100,000 question is: Why would Paul even broach the idea of the revelatory gifts ceasing, given how much some Corinthians loved them?

Then like Sherlock Holms you use abductive reasoning to list reasons Paul might have for doing so. First you look for any additional facts pertinent to the situation:

39 ...do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
(1 Cor. 14:39-40 NKJ)

Who could and would want to "forbid speaking in tongues" in church? Notice a possible reason, somehow tongues speaking was upsetting the "order" in the church. Only a majority can make the rules in a church, so we must deduce the majority of Corinthians did NOT speak in tongues and they thought it wasn't being done "decently and in order" so they wanted to forbid them.

If a majority in Corinth didn't speak in tongues, then its likely they were already ceasing and so Paul, to console the tongues speakers points out they were destined to cease once the full revelation of God arrived:

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(1 Cor. 13:8-12 NKJ)

As the early church did not know when Christ would come, and thought it would be soon in their lifetime, Paul's consolation is clear. "You won't miss the "partial revelation" once the "perfect revelation" of God arrives.

Now the question Sherlock must answer, because some will point to this and say "see, tongues cannot cease until the perfect revelation arrives." But both history and studies of modern tongues indicates the genuine tongues ceased in the 1st century, and what claims to be tongues today actually is something else, not Bible tongues.

Sherlock them considers Paul's precise statement and he realizes Paul did not say WHEN prophecies would fail, when tongues would cease, or when [supernatural] knowledge would vanish, he only says it will happen.

Their cessation is not connected or dependent on the arrival of the perfect. Paul only says "you won't miss them in the Perfect, once it arrives.

Then he goes even further and discusses this reality compared to the alternate reality we call the "kingdom of God."

Now we live in the MEROS [Realm of partial revelation], it will be "done away" once the TELEIOS [realm of perfect revelation] has come.

Just as adulthood pushes into non-existence childhood. When you are an adult, you won't miss childish things. There no promise any particular childhood toy will continue until adulthood. In fact most vanish long before adulthood.


To illustrate Paul's point:

Some in the audience had ice cream cones that were melting in the hot sun. They were sad about this, so Paul consoles them:

"When the ice cream factory comes, which only sells ice cream by the gallon, all ice cream cones will be done away."

There is no promise ice cream cones won't melt before the factory comes, only that such won't exist once the factory arrives.

And no one will miss them.


For more on this:

Will the real Continualist Please Stand Up? The Alleged Continuance of the Revelatory Gifts | End Time News

From Frame 5:15 John MacArthur explains Continuationist vs. Cessationist "I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the...

endtimenews.net

 

[eddif]

The $100,000 question is: Why would Paul even broach the idea of the revelatory gifts ceasing, given how much some Corinthians loved them?

The gentiles did not have the oracles of God as part of their history. in fact they might have thought too highly of the spiritual gifts if they were not warned / instructed.
The wilderness serpent on the pole was never intended to be worshiped, but it became a idol / god to the Jews and was destroyed.

Scripture is revealed slowly and yet creation was complete at creation. The problem is rhe hidden things of creation are still being understood. The perfect comes when the fulfillment of prophecy is completed and we are changed.

All your links are presented as a complete finished work and the understanding is complete now. The Christian sees through a glass darkly and awaits perfection / completion. At the last trump operations, then we are to see completion.

In Corinthians gentiles are being told what the spiritual gifts are, how they are used, and at the end of time they will not be needed. Spiritual gifts are a tool used to witness.

I know full well I face being called c a non understanding person by some on both sides of this issue. Jesus is salvation (there is one name under heaven that provides eternal life).
Nehushtan was destroyed along with other idols.
2 Kings 13:4 kjv
4. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Mississippi low class redneck
eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

So there must not be any Believers nowadays?

Not any that have those miraculous abilities.
What were those abilities to be used for? Just to impress their neighbors? No. It was to reveal and confirm the word! The word has already been revealed and confirmed. I dont need your ”tongue” speaking “devil” casting abilities to gIve me faith in the message that has already been recorded for me by individuals who were authentic.

So the Testimonies that I've heard about people casting devils out were all lies?

I think they were because I do not believe in demon possession today.

So the Church service where they asked if anyone had a word form God to share to stand up and give it, then the person who rose up began to speak, but it was in Tongues...and then another stood up and says, I know what that means, and he interpreted it for the congregation...was a lie?

What language was he interpreting? If it wasn’t a language then how can you know the interpretation was correct? Also how do you know what he said came from the Spirit and not from the devil? You just said that you believe the devil can still possess people.

So the Brother in Christ that I know was not poisoned in his drink, and did drink it and was not harmed...this too was a lie?

They put poison in their drink? Who would do that? Has anybody ever in this world ever drank anything poisonous and lived? Of course. I have heard that certain people can ingest a certain amount of arsenic and it wont harm them but then you give that same amount to someone else and they may die. It all depends on their internal make up.

But nobody asked me for any money relating to these testimonies, so wherein is the advantage to lie about it reside?

What benefit is in it anyway? Just to impress me that your are “more spiritual then me”! That is not what they were used for in the first century. If these gifts had a direct purpose to reveal and confirm the word then please show me when that purpose changed to….hey look what I can do! Pat Robertson can testify to me all he wants but all I have to do is compare his doctrine to what Bible says and know without a doubt that he is teaching false doctrine.

And since God does not change, why would He take the gifts away from a large body of Believers which desire the gifts/

It says “God does not change”. Dose this mean that his ways of dealing with man have never changed? Of course not! That’s an absurd position to take. Do you have to build an altar and sacrifice animals today in order to be pleasing to God? No. Why not? I thought God never changes. Is there a temple with priest that we all worship in today? Why not? There was a time when God sent prophets who spoke directly for him. Does he do that today? No! I thought God never changed? Where are you getting your information?

Does the Holy Spirit indwell us as scripture says?

Yes! But how? Lets let the Bible help us with that. Here are parallel passages…
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Ephesians 5:18-19
Here Paul commands to be “filled with the Spirit“ and then he gives instruction.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Colossians 3:16
Then here he commands…”let the word dwell in you” and then he gives the same instruction as the verse above. This is Bible commentary on how we are to be “filled with the Spirit”. The Spirit dwells in us through his word. Not directly through the miraculous.

Will the Holy Spirit lead us into all truths as scripture says? (But no gifts of the Holy Spirit my People!)???

He already has. Where does “truth” come from? The word that he has already revealed and confirmed and has left us in the written form. (Unless you are catholic then it dont matter). The promise to be “guided into all truth” was not given directly to us. He spoke that to the apostles at the last supper. But when we read what they wrote we too are guided into all truth. I dont need your “testimony”.

It's too hard for me to grasp that the gifts are gone. There are way too many Testimonies out now and easily available to hear online for me to even be able to fathom that God would take these gifts away.

Do you believe that people can lie about these things? If so, then how do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth?
My question would be…how did these people get these gifts? The apostles were the ones in the first century that could lay hands on people and administer these abilities. They’re dead. The HS DID NOT just land on people and give them these gifts. It was done twice in the NT and both for effect. Once for the jews in acts 2 and the other for the gentiles in acts 10, and we see NO OTHER accounts of this happening anywhere else in the NT. If you can show them to me then go ahead.

However, you are free to Believe as you wish.

I will believe what the Bible teaches me and not what man and his testimony has to say about it.

 

[Cnkw3]

Drink any deadly thing .

A true story . A missionary and his family were off the jungles of a foreign country . Where they lived the jungle was a few yards away in front of their house . And almost everyday they would see some of the natives in the edge of the jungle observing them and thought nothing of it as the missionary family went about their chores and drawing their water out of their well in the front yard . Finally the after a couple of weeks the natives came out of the jungle and talked to the family . The natives said the wanted to know more about the God the missionary family served because this was the true God !
The natives said , we know your God is the true God because He protected you, we have been putting poison in your well many times and all of you are still alive .

Im pretty sure there have been plenty of christian people who drank bad stuff and died. More then we can count. I guess these were the lucky ones. Im sure not going to give it a go.

 

[Cnkw3]

Drink any deadly thing .

A true story . A missionary and his family were off the jungles of a foreign country . Where they lived the jungle was a few yards away in front of their house . And almost everyday they would see some of the natives in the edge of the jungle observing them and thought nothing of it as the missionary family went about their chores and drawing their water out of their well in the front yard . Finally the after a couple of weeks the natives came out of the jungle and talked to the family . The natives said the wanted to know more about the God the missionary family served because this was the true God !
The natives said , we know your God is the true God because He protected you, we have been putting poison in your well many times and all of you are still alive .

This to me speaks more to the providence of God then anybody having some miraculous gifts. This is a question of…why does this person die and this person live? We see an example of this in Acts 12. James was beheaded but the angel came and freed Peter. These things happen all the time. If you start to judge that these people were more spiritual then others I disagree because you are now starting to whittle on Gods end of the stick.

 

[eddif]

This to me speaks more to the providence of God then anybody having some miraculous gifts. This is a question of…why does this person die and this person live? We see an example of this in Acts 12. James was beheaded but the angel came and freed Peter. These things happen all the time. If you start to judge that these people were more spiritual then others I disagree because you are now starting to whittle on Gods end of the stick.

IMHO underground water slowly moves. Just because something is put in a well, it does not mean you will draw it out 3 hours later. It would be a miracle to draw out ar a safe time.

Now covid is in existence. I have had the opportunity to have ecxperienced it. I had several major symptoms that lingered and then leave. If I did not believe in this protection against death I would not be posting. I had / havevproblems.Yes. Faith is now the assurance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Regretfully I sin at times, so grace must be active.

eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

IMHO underground water slowly moves. Just because something is put in a well, it does not mean you will draw it out 3 hours later. It would be a miracle to draw out ar a safe time.

Now covid is in existence. I have had the opportunity to have ecxperienced it. I had several major symptoms that lingered and then leave. If I did not believe in this protection against death I would not be posting. I had / havevproblems.Yes. Faith is now the assurance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Regretfully I sin at times, so grace must be active.

eddif

Why would “grace” NOT be active? The Bible tells us….
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:11
Grace is here and will always stay here. But you or anyone else surviving a sickness has nothing to do with the grace of God. Grace has brought about the means of eternal salvation not salvation from sickness or death in this life.

 

[Edward]

What benefit is in it anyway? Just to impress me that your are “more spiritual then me”! That is not what they were used for in the first century. If these gifts had a direct purpose to reveal and confirm the word then please show me when that purpose changed to….hey look what I can do! Pat Robertson can testify to me all he wants but all I have to do is compare his doctrine to what Bible says and know without a doubt that he is teaching false doctrine.

I'm not trying to impress anyone.

He already has. Where does “truth” come from? The word that he has already revealed and confirmed and has left us in the written form. (Unless you are catholic then it dont matter). The promise to be “guided into all truth” was not given directly to us. He spoke that to the apostles at the last supper. But when we read what they wrote we too are guided into all truth. I dont need your “testimony”.

You don't? Should I even share my own personal Testimonies? Perhaps I should remain silent about what the Lord does for me? Well, like you say, let's compare our questions to the written word, ok?

Oh, let's see here sharing testimonies...
Mark 5:19, Revelation 12:11, 1 John 5:10, John 8:14, 1 John 5:11, John 16:12-14,

So even if God has (and it is true, though I don't seem to be able to prove most of them) done miraculous and supernaural things for me...it is not beneficial to share these testimonies with others? But these things that have happened, they certainly do not indicate anything about my spirituality whatsoever. How could they/ I don't do miracles. The Lord does though and this is His Testimony which has been put in me, that I now carry! And I will speak of them for He is a wonderful and Glorious God who's Love and Mercy knows no match.

So are you including signs and wonders in your declarations that God don't do those things anymore?
Are there no real healings going on? No one has ever been raised from the dead?

I have never raised the dead mysef. I've never taken up serpents or played on the freeway, lol, I've never casted out any devils...but I did speak in Tongues.

Tongues was a big topic awhile back, and it sounded good to me, that I would want this for myself.
But scripture told me that, this is the Holy Spirit praying for us because we don't know how to pray as we should. On that note, I didn't feel it was my portion to initiate anything of the sort. How can I put words into the Holy Spirit's mouth? I can't and it would be at least rude (to me). So this is something that The Holy Spirit does, not us. So I stopped praying about it so much and basically forgot about it because nothing had ever happened. I even had multiple people tell me that they can teach me to speak in Tongues. Uhh, no you can't. You can teach me to speak for the Holy Spirit?! How is that possible? So forget it. And then one day I'm sitting and praying and my speech coming out of my mouth changed to...an unknown tongue for me. But I did not do this. But I also realized what was going on so I stood down so to speak and shut my mouth and let the Holy Spirit finish. After He finished His prayer, I finished my feeble prayer, lol.

I never got an interpretation for it either. And it's never happened again since then. I am not encouraged to speak more in tongues now, but I have learned that if the Holy Spirit wants to speak, He will and is welcome to! Praise the Lord, at least one real good prayer went up for me now!

I have this Testimony inside of me. This happened in real life. So would you call me a liar? Delusional? What benefit is there for me to lie about this? I have not asked for your card number, lol. I don't have a CD to sell you.

And the thing is, is I know that there is nothing in scripture which can tell me that this was false somehow. I was there. It was me. So in seeing the doubt in the thread about tingus and stuff, I wanted to share that. It happened. So would you tell me that I can be praying to my Lord, Almighty God, and my prayer can be interupted and subverted by evil spirits? Next thing you know you'll tell me that the enemy can snatch me from God's hand?!

 

[Edward]

Why would “grace” NOT be active? The Bible tells us….
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:11
Grace is here and will always stay here. But you or anyone else surviving a sickness has nothing to do with the grace of God. Grace has brought about the means of eternal salvation not salvation from sickness or death in this life.

Would you like to hear my own personal Healing Testimony?

I've posted many many Testimonies on this forum. I pretty much stopped posting every one because I started feeling like I was bragging or could be seen as bragging. And such is not the case, so I stopped anyway. But lately the Lord has shown me again (!), that we should share our Testimonies for the encouragement of other Believers and the unBelievers. To give substance to the power behind His word that men may believe.

I can not teach you how to speak in tongues. I can teach you how to hear the still small voice of God.

That's me, I hear voices in my head! Lol. Incidently, I don't think it's in my head, but that my head can hear it too. It's more of a perceiving and not thinking, but the words are there. It was actually fun for me to learn to discern His still small voice. Like scripture says, you have to become as a little child. So at first it's like a game...but it got real pretty fast, I kid you not.

 

[Edward]

Would you like to hear my own personal Healing Testimony?

I've posted many many Testimonies on this forum. I pretty much stopped posting every one because I started feeling like I was bragging or could be seen as bragging. And such is not the case, so I stopped anyway. But lately the Lord has shown me again (!), that we should share our Testimonies for the encouragement of other Believers and the unBelievers. To give substance to the power behind His word that men may believe.

I can not teach you how to speak in tongues. I can teach you how to hear the still small voice of God.

That's me, I hear voices in my head! Lol. Incidently, I don't think it's in my head, but that my head can hear it too. It's more of a perceiving and not thinking, but the words are there. It was actually fun for me to learn to discern His still small voice. Like scripture says, you have to become as a little child. So at first it's like a game...but it got real pretty fast, I kid you not.

And over time it became such that inside of me, I have my proof, for myself. The more you talk to God (and listen), the more you will see. He doesn't talk in the same grammatical way that I do. Or how I think. Most of it is subtle differences but it gets more obvious when...He says things to me that I don't like! Things that I want to say no to. Luckily I am also learning to say yes Lord more often than not.

I did not tell myself to move from Colorado to Ohio...Yet I am here. Because there was the Jonah warning too.

 

[hawkman]

Anyone new to this thread and would like to understand how things have been presented from the "cessation" point of view , go to this post https://christianforums.net/threads/baptism-in-the-spirit-the-experience.91152/#post-1677787
after reading that post scroll down to post #4 . Only .

You want to prove your case but don't know the rules for making a convincing argument. If the Bible doesn't explicitly or implicitly teach xyz, its "unscriptural." Only your opinion xyz is true.

I rest my case as you call it .

 

[Alfred Persson]

Anyone new to this thread and would like to understand how things have been presented from the "cessation" point of view , go to this post https://christianforums.net/threads/baptism-in-the-spirit-the-experience.91152/#post-1677787
after reading that post scroll down to post #4 . Only .


I rest my case as you call it .

I agree, #4 was my rebuttal of the case you made in #2

 

[Alfred Persson]

The gentiles did not have the oracles of God as part of their history. in fact they might have thought too highly of the spiritual gifts if they were not warned / instructed.
The wilderness serpent on the pole was never intended to be worshiped, but it became a idol / god to the Jews and was destroyed.

Scripture is revealed slowly and yet creation was complete at creation. The problem is rhe hidden things of creation are still being understood. The perfect comes when the fulfillment of prophecy is completed and we are changed.

All your links are presented as a complete finished work and the understanding is complete now. The Christian sees through a glass darkly and awaits perfection / completion. At the last trump operations, then we are to see completion.

In Corinthians gentiles are being told what the spiritual gifts are, how they are used, and at the end of time they will not be needed. Spiritual gifts are a tool used to witness.

I know full well I face being called c a non understanding person by some on both sides of this issue. Jesus is salvation (there is one name under heaven that provides eternal life).
Nehushtan was destroyed along with other idols.
2 Kings 13:4 kjv
4. He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Mississippi low class redneck
eddif

You have your own understanding, no doubt about that. But when Christ or His apostles wanted to share their understanding with others, they didn't do as you. They quoted scripture:

31 "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. (Matt. 22:31-33 NKJ)

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms:`Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and,`Let another take his office.' (Acts 1:20 NKJ)

42 "Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets:`Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? (Acts 7:42 NKJ)

4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged (Rom. 3:4 NKJ)

Why don't you imitate their fine example, given you profess to follow Christ and His apostles?

At present, even if I agree with you on a particular point, it still carries no weight UNTIL the scripture upon which the point rests, is duly cited.

Last but not least, the Scripture possesses a power of persuasion all to itself. When confronted by someone who disagrees, citing scripture often changes their mind:

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

And Scripture has also been known to drive opponents into a frenzy. Which is good.

52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
53 "who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
(Acts 7:52-58 NKJ)

One of the reasons God wrote scripture as He did, was to separate the chaff, the false opinion from the wheat, the truth of God:


28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who steal My words every one from his neighbor.
31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who use their tongues and say,`He says.'
32 "Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," says the LORD, "and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all," says the LORD.
(Jer. 23:28-32 NKJ)

 

[eddif]

You have your own understanding, no doubt about that. But when Christ or His apostles wanted to share their understanding with others, they didn't do as you. They quoted scripture:

31 "But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying,
32 `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob '? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. (Matt. 22:31-33 NKJ)

20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms:`Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and,`Let another take his office.' (Acts 1:20 NKJ)

42 "Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets:`Did you offer Me slaughtered animals and sacrifices during forty years in the wilderness, O house of Israel? (Acts 7:42 NKJ)

4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged (Rom. 3:4 NKJ)

Why don't you imitate their fine example, given you profess to follow Christ and His apostles?

At present, even if I agree with you on a particular point, it still carries no weight UNTIL the scripture upon which the point rests, is duly cited.

Last but not least, the Scripture possesses a power of persuasion all to itself. When confronted by someone who disagrees, citing scripture often changes their mind:

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(Heb. 4:12-13 NKJ)

And Scripture has also been known to drive opponents into a frenzy. Which is good.

52 "Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
53 "who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it."
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;
58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
(Acts 7:52-58 NKJ)

One of the reasons God wrote scripture as He did, was to separate the chaff, the false opinion from the wheat, the truth of God:


28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
29 "Is not My word like a fire?" says the LORD, "And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
30 "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who steal My words every one from his neighbor.
31 "Behold, I am against the prophets," says the LORD, "who use their tongues and say,`He says.'
32 "Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," says the LORD, "and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all," says the LORD.
(Jer. 23:28-32 NKJ)

I used a scripture related to the worship of something that God used at a point in time for good, but when it went wrong it was taken away.
The teaching of tongues ceasing in the future we were already discussing I suggested we understand the 1 Corinthians 13 passage as a mild warning.
Two scriptures discussing one concept. Are they the same in your estimation? No.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

I used a scripture related to the worship of something that God used at a point in time for good, but when it went wrong it was taken away.
The teaching of tongues ceasing in the future we were already discussing I suggested we understand the 1 Corinthians 13 passage as a mild warning.
Two scriptures discussing one concept. Are they the same in your estimation? No.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Yes, you did but failed to cite the scripture and its reference so others could read it in context to determine if you cited it correctly.

I'm not criticizing you, I just noticed a conflict, a contradiction.

You do want your opinion considered, but don't follow the best method for making that happen.

Rather than refer to a concept in scripture, cite the actual text with the reference. Then point out the wording that makes your point. Saying "it is written" is very powerful to a guy like me, scripture is my authority. When its cited I have to consider if its being cited accurately.

Just referring to a scripture generally and making a comment you believe is shared by others, is ok. But not if you want your opinion considered, discussed and perhaps accepted as truth.

But if you don't want to change your methodology, you're happy with citing an opinion that others could accept or reject regardless of its truth. Keep doing what you are doing, you do it well.

If you want to improve your "sharing skills", learn how to argue a point; Prove you are right and others wrong.

Just google "Rule book for arguments" or "How to argue" and there are reams of material on the subject. I like this one:

Goodreads

Discover and share books you love on Goodreads.

www.goodreads.com

 

[eddif]

Yes, you did but failed to cite the scripture and its reference so others could read it in context to determine if you cited it correctly.

I'm not criticizing you, I just noticed a conflict, a contradiction.

You do want your opinion considered, but don't follow the best method for making that happen.

Rather than refer to a concept in scripture, cite the actual text with the reference. Then point out the wording that makes your point. Saying "it is written" is very powerful to a guy like me, scripture is my authority. When its cited I have to consider if its being cited accurately.

Just referring to a scripture generally and making a comment you believe is shared by others, is ok. But not if you want your opinion considered, discussed and perhaps accepted as truth.

But if you don't want to change your methodology, you're happy with citing an opinion that others could accept or reject regardless of its truth. Keep doing what you are doing, you do it well.

If you want to improve your "sharing skills", learn how to argue a point; Prove you are right and others wrong.

Just google "Rule book for arguments" or "How to argue" and there are reams of material on the subject. I like this one:

Goodreads

Discover and share books you love on Goodreads.

www.goodreads.com

You did note you yourself did not provide scripture for this lesson. And I am not trying to totally shoot you down.

Right now I am doing a search for a good diet. About where I am now is: The highly processed foods are not sometimes good for us.
Hunter gatherer may be best.

But this is interesting to me:
1. Garden of Eden most things are plant foods.
2. Put out of the garden man I suppose became a hunter gatherer till they could re establish agriculture. The soil tended toward thorns and weeds ( my words - there are biblical words).
3. After the flood the difference in in water rising from the ground as a mist slowed ( less minerals to plants), and rain washed nutrients away from plants.
4. Meat was added to diet.

Archeologists would have to find Eden to verify #1 one garden one couple.

Archeologists would have to find one family dwelling area to verify #2.

Ok Break….
Acts 17:11 kjv
11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I try to allow hunter gathers to check for themselves if what I say is truth. Sometimes I do a lot of scripture quotes, but other times not.

Hunger after eating from existing highly processed food:
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that precedes out of the mouth of God.
Today when we get hungry we reach for a carb. What we need is the meat of the Word of God. IMHO each person led by the Holy Spirit can find what they need from: Creation - Romans 1:20 , Scripture, Jesus's statements, Apostles teaching, Quickining Spirit / Holy Spirit led study. I could put out a bunch of stuff on a candy isle, but it might not fit individual nutritional needs. I do want to get to the language an individual persons inner
thoughts.
Rednecks just think strangely.
eddif

 

[Cnkw3]

Would you like to hear my own personal Healing Testimony?

I've posted many many Testimonies on this forum. I pretty much stopped posting every one because I started feeling like I was bragging or could be seen as bragging. And such is not the case, so I stopped anyway. But lately the Lord has shown me again (!), that we should share our Testimonies for the encouragement of other Believers and the unBelievers. To give substance to the power behind His word that men may believe.

I can not teach you how to speak in tongues. I can teach you how to hear the still small voice of God.

That's me, I hear voices in my head! Lol. Incidently, I don't think it's in my head, but that my head can hear it too. It's more of a perceiving and not thinking, but the words are there. It was actually fun for me to learn to discern His still small voice. Like scripture says, you have to become as a little child. So at first it's like a game...but it got real pretty fast, I kid you not.

I will ask again….what examples in the NT do you have to show that the HS just falls on people to give them this ability? I mentioned the only two you are going to find in acts 2 & 10. Both for effect and not to repeated for every christian. We know this because it is not repeated anywhere in the NT. I am not going to rely on or follow a doctrine that….
1. has never been demonstrated to me in my entire life
2. Is not Biblical. There are no examples of this anywhere in the NT. Apostles and Cornelius and that’s it.
Why didnt it happen to those in Samaria in acts 8? Somehow the Spirit gave it to you and didnt give it to them. And they actually had Philip working miracles among them. I guess God just loves you more.

 

[Edward]

Not any that have those miraculous abilities.
What were those abilities to be used for? Just to impress their neighbors? No. It was to reveal and confirm the word! The word has already been revealed and confirmed. I dont need your ”tongue” speaking “devil” casting abilities to gIve me faith in the message that has already been recorded for me by individuals who were authentic.

But no Believers have ever had that ability. I of myself can do nothing, it is Christ in me. So what I did ask was are there no Believers today then?

I do understand that the Apostles did these things to reveal the word and to confirm the word...but does the word still need revealed and confirmation of the word today? Has the Gospel been preached to the entire world yet? No, but we're getting close.

I think they were because I do not believe in demon possession today.

When all is said and done, I believe you will be sorely amazed at just how much demonic oppression that the entire world was (is) under.

What language was he interpreting? If it wasn’t a language then how can you know the interpretation was correct? Also how do you know what he said came from the Spirit and not from the devil? You just said that you believe the devil can still possess people.

I was not given the interpretation so how would I know? God has this lovely way of doing things so that to many it is left up to their faith. It is all about faith. Your faith has healed you and so forth, all throughout scripture. So there's more to it than simply the Logos. It is also the Rhema which Testifys. The greater the faith shown, the greater things can be accomplished in the Lord.

I will ask again….what examples in the NT do you have to show that the HS just falls on people to give them this ability? I mentioned the only two you are going to find in acts 2 & 10. Both for effect and not to repeated for every christian. We know this because it is not repeated anywhere in the NT. I am not going to rely on or follow a doctrine that….
1. has never been demonstrated to me in my entire life
2. Is not Biblical. There are no examples of this anywhere in the NT. Apostles and Cornelius and that’s it.
Why didnt it happen to those in Samaria in acts 8? Somehow the Spirit gave it to you and didnt give it to them. And they actually had Philip working miracles among them. I guess God just loves you more.

Oh I doubt that, lol. There's not much I can say if you have never seen it demonstrated in your entire life. Perhaps you should get out more? You must "see it" before you can believe and I understand this because, I was raised that way too, lol. But consider a couple things.

John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.../KJV


2 Corinthians 4:17-18
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.../ KJV

Jesus and Paul both talk about the unseen realm. The Spiritual realm. It became true to Thomas when he seen Jesus. It was already true to those who look to the unseen. And then Paul makes it an instruction to us to look to the unseen, the spiritual realm.

Some wise old redneck once said that you can't separate the spiritual and the natural. And this is true and we should keep this in mind all the time. Noone can get to know God even the least little bit, without...wondering what He will do tomorrow.

You are convincingly adamant about your confidence in the written word and it's doctrine, the Logos. The Logos, or what we call the Bible, is everything (prolly more) that you have said it is.

The "word" of God as used in the Bible can be Logos (written Word) or Rhema (Spoken Word).

You have almost suggested that there is no truth outside of scripture and that is not so. But we see through a glass darkly. The Logos is the natural realm Word of God. You can pick it up and hold it.
The Rhema of God is the Spiritual realm Word of God. Spoken Words that you can not see or hold.

You can't separate the spiritual and the natural. God's Words will not come back to Him void. I think that to wholeheartedly accept the written word and to reject Rhemas at the same time is a mistake. Because after all, It's not about the book, it's about Him, as a person and our God. The book leads us to Him.

And I can witness to the fact that Jesus has said more than what made it to print. (Although most of what He says, Can be found in print!). So I think you would do well to consider these things and perhaps do a study on Rhemas in the Concordance. (BlueLetterBible.com)