We will get there, especially as I know you use symbolism.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Baptism in the Spirit: The experience
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
I certainly agree with your theology here, Alfred. Twice in my Christian life, I attended small gatherings where speaking in tongues occurred. Both times, I was the "odd man out" because I felt absolutely no compulsion to join in. Even though I was a newbie the first time, it was very clear to me that this was an entirely artificial phenomenon - not even genuine spiritual ecstasy. It was just babbling to fit in.
Ecstatic utterances have, of course, been part of many religions since ancient times. They are not unique to Christianity by any means. If someone genuinely achieves this state in the Christian context and the proper Spirit, it doesn't trouble me. Some people are simply more emotional and prone to emotionalism than others. I'm a more of a "small, still voice of the Spirit" sort of Christian.
One thing that always amuses me is how large tangential issues like speaking in tongues loom in debates between Christians. Speaking in tongues is only one example of many. Across the spectrum of Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestantism, it seems Christians love to attack or defend the odd, mostly unimportant doctrines that make them "different" and separate them from other Christians.
I see only one small problem with your post and I will edit it to this .Also, when a Pastor of any Christian church preaches Scripture in an expository manner, that is the prophetic Word of God. He assumes the role of the prophet, bringing forth the very Word of God.
But you may ask how is this even possible at all ? The Gifts of The Holy Spirit that you deny are in this age with us now .
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
OK thanks to Edward I found my two word meaning I reversed (totally messed up).
"Sheep goats lost coins are not usually about the ( PHYSICAL THING ) being taught"
Why I put spiritual I do not know.
Thanks Edward
eddif
Ok Edward tell me like it is. I have experienced hearing God In dead churches. I have had people from South Africa prophesy about me in supposed alive churches. God used a donkey once. You are not a donkey. What have I presented wrong.
Tell it like it are.
I found some more prophets that were not the apostles .
Acts 13 |
| 1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. |
Acts 21
| 8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. |
| 9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. |
Nothing in the context says prophets spoke the Word of God like the apostles.
This is the difference: the apostles did signs and wonders that confirmed they spoke God's Word.
Even foundational prophets were tested to see if their prophecy was true.
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)
Also, when a Pastor of any Christian church preaches Scripture in an expository manner, that is the prophetic Word of God. He assumes the role of the prophet, bringing forth the very Word of God.
But you may ask how is this even possible at all ? The Gifts of The Holy Spirit that you deny are in this age with us now .
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
You got me. I should have said its the modern day equivalent of prophecy, but only if the exegesis is `100% correct.
Expository preaching reads the text of scripture, explaining as it is read any obscurities that might cause the listeners to miss the point God is making. So it mostly is the Word of God, the text of Scripture word for word, and the audience knows when the text is being explained, so there is no mixing man's word with God's Word.
Expository preaching
Expository preaching, also known as expositional preaching, is a form of preaching that details the meaning of a particular text or passage of Scripture. It explains what the Bible means by what it says. Exegesis is technical and grammatical exposition, a careful drawing out of the exact meaning of a passage in its original context.Wikipedia
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And is there any suggestion they did not ?
Was Stephen an apostle ?
8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
The day of Pentecost was about the sons and daughters of Israel receiving the Holy Spirit. Up to that time the prophets were the major ones to speak the word and work miracles.
This conversation has come to the spot where we have rhe Apostles being the main ones to manifest the Holy Spirit.
Shortly in Acts the Gentiles are to revceive the Holy Spirit.
Their sons and daughters will be involved in prophecy and miracles.
Today will we allow the continuation of the spread of spiritual gifts? Do we discuss how people were prepared for Pentecost? That preparation took about 400 years. It was like a 400 year fast. History seemed to grow almost silent.
Then there arose miracles about the birth of John then Baptist and Jesus.
Then a voice crying in the wilderness.
Today do we hear a voice?
eddif
And no suggestion they did, which is what you need for proof. The 120 likely did great wonders and miracles, but signs of an apostle were done only by the Twelve and Paul.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Lol. Yesterday I was reading one of AP's posts and that very thought came to mind, this man needs to read the Psalms more, and believe them.
It's very challenging to speak of spiritual truths to those who have not seen such manifistations. Like they're a different box almost, lol. God didn't say, here's one single scripture that will settle the argumanet conclusively as the truth...it's more like, He showed me some truths and left me wondering what to do with it and how to express it.
Testimonies are the best way Brother. You can see the value in Testimonies because you have ears which can hear, but this is not so for everyone. And to those people I say, If any passage of the Bible has ever stood out to you and quickened you in spirit, and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that, this is true...then, the rest of it has to be true too.
Now Psalm 119 is the longest chapter in the Bible and there's a reason for that, lol. Cuz it's so chocked full of truths. And I think it must be true that many people (most?) only have a limited grasp of what the Psalms are. Now for sure we cann see that most of the Psalms are David's Testimonies, but one with ears to hear and eyes to see, will see that they are much more than that. Because the Testimonies unlock the truths which can be (are supposed to be), understood and believed by us and applied to our very own everyday life. And we believe this for we know that God is no respector of persons, so what was ever given to David is available for all.
The entire book of Psalms is very...Twilight Zone sort of reading. and has very very little in common with this natural realm at all, so people are incliined to breeze by these twilight zone statements with the thought, well that was for David and what happened to him, or well Psalm 91 was all about Jesus and the protection that He was given while on earth, not me or you!
Uh, pardon me?
Psalm 119:97-104
97 Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the [q]ancients,
Because I keep Your precepts.
101 I have restrained my feet from every evil way,
That I may keep Your word.
102 I have not departed from Your judgments,
For You Yourself have taught me.
103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.../
Now from this we can easily see that David walked with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not available to all yet because Jesus was not yet glorified. But David was a chosen vessel so he had the Holy Spirit. And these are the things that the Holy Spirit gives to us and Jesus tells everyone plainly in John 7 that...
37-39
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [g]believing in Him would receive; for the [h]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.../
The Holy Spirit is available to everyone. Nowhere does it say that...the Believeing Apostles...or, the Holy Spirit and His gifts will be stopped at any point.
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.../
Just what do we suppose that this means? He who Believes in me is pretty cut and dried that it is not merely the Apostles. But wait, there's a qualifier. He who Believes in me, as the scripture has said...but if you back up just one verse it says of anyone thirsts let him come to me and drink. So it seems to me that not only does one have to Believe, but he has to drink and receive it. So not everyone gets it, and those that don't, must not be thirsty so did not drink.
So of course we appear as liars to them, and, of course this Brother needs to receive and read Psalms more.
I want to hear the farm Testimony! I love hearing Testimonies.
Talk about hymns teaching theological truths is a deep subject and prolly deserves it's own thread! I know that some of these things are true. Most have no clue as to how powerful music can be spiritually.
Of course it does. In 1 cor 12 we see a discussion of spiritual gifts. Then in the next chapter we see….
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:8
He starts listing some of the gifts and states that they will cease, vanish away. So, you cant say…nowhere does it say that the gifts will be stopped, because it says exactly that.
Let’s look at another passage. We want “truth” right. you said that there isn’t one passage that settles it all.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; (all believers? I don’t think so)
In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16:17-18
Does this happen today? No! Good luck with all that by the way. It says…”them that believe”. Why does that not include all the people I have been acquainted with? They are “believers” but they can’t perform any of the above. If you are a snake handling church today you are labeled as freaks. So the proof is…..These spiritual gifts were only for a certain time and then they would die off when no longer needed. It was the apostles that laid hands on people that gave them these gifts in the first place. So when the apostles died out the ability to pass these gifts on passed with them. If you disagree then feel free to show me all the examples where the Spirit just auto fell on people and then they had this miraculous ability? It’s not the way it happened.
Edward
2024 Supporter
So there must not be any Believers nowadays?
So the Testimonies that I've heard about people casting devils out were all lies?
So the Church service where they asked if anyone had a word form God to share to stand up and give it, then the person who rose up began to speak, but it was in Tongues...and then another stood up and says, I know what that means, and he interpreted it for the congregation...was a lie?
So the Brother in Christ that I know was not poisoned in his drink, and did drink it and was not harmed...this too was a lie?
But nobody asked me for any money relating to these testimonies, so wherein is the advantage to lie about it reside?
And since God does not change, why would He take the gifts away from a large body of Believers which desire the gifts/
Does the Holy Spirit indwell us as scripture says?
Will the Holy Spirit lead us into all truths as scripture says? (But no gifts of the Holy Spirit my People!)???
It's too hard for me to grasp that the gifts are gone. There are way too many Testimonies out now and easily available to hear online for me to even be able to fathom that God would take these gifts away.
However, you are free to Believe as you wish.
And you said this .
The prophets in Acts13 and 21 spoke just like the apostles , they spoke by The Holy Spirit with their mouths .
I speak with my mouth , Alfred Persson do you speak some other way ?
Drink any deadly thing .
A true story . A missionary and his family were off the jungles of a foreign country . Where they lived the jungle was a few yards away in front of their house . And almost everyday they would see some of the natives in the edge of the jungle observing them and thought nothing of it as the missionary family went about their chores and drawing their water out of their well in the front yard . Finally the after a couple of weeks the natives came out of the jungle and talked to the family . The natives said the wanted to know more about the God the missionary family served because this was the true God !
The natives said , we know your God is the true God because He protected you, we have been putting poison in your well many times and all of you are still alive .
And we both walk on our feet.
Like talking with our mouths NEITHER proves from the Bible the prophets spoke the very Word of God. Only the apostles did that:
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)
Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Acts 2:43 NKJ)
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:12 NKJ)
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?
Of course not.
There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believers" Christ is sending out who may have numbered in the thousands. The pronouns "they, them" refer to this group only who are sent out BY CHRIST who will specially establish the Christian faith in all the earth.
Our LORD explained to the eleven how they could know who these special and unique believers are. They will do signs confirming their commission by God others cannot do.
Confirming this transition to the special group, the context ends with the statement THIS PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED IN THE 1ST CENTURY. We see that in the book of Acts, where Paul is included as one of the believing apostles.]
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
(Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
[As individual Pentecostal and Non-Pentecostal believers DO NOT DO ALL the signs (cast out demons, speak with new tongues, take up serpents, drink deadly poison) must we conclude there are no believers today on planet earth?
Of course not.
There is a transition implied by the context, from believers preached to in the world, to the special group of "believers" Christ is sending out who may have numbered in the thousands. The pronouns "they, them" refer to this group only who are sent out BY CHRIST who will specially establish the Christian faith in all the earth.
Our LORD explained to the eleven how they could know who these special and unique believers are. They will do signs confirming their commission by God others cannot do.
Confirming this transition to the special group, the context ends with the statement THIS PROPHECY WAS FULFILLED IN THE 1ST CENTURY. We see that in the book of Acts, where Paul is included as one of the believing apostles.]
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
(Mk. 16:13-20 NKJ)
Some hear the voice and some never will . Their unbelief is their down fall .