yes I believe that the “gifts of the HS” are no longer available. But that has nothing to do with who was “baptized with the HS” in Acts 2.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Baptism in the Spirit: The experience
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
Of course they didnt equally receive the baptism of the Spirit. Where do you find that? The Bible describes the 12 having the cloven tongues as of fire. This didnt include the 120. These were “men of Galilee”.
What does the above have to do with Acts 2. Early Christian’s were given a measure of the Spirit when an apostle laid his hands on them. I do believe most if not all that the apostles came across were given a measure of the Spirit. But this is different then being baptized by the Spirit. Acts 8 proves that.
Where does it say that 120 were given special grace to establish Christianity. There were women in the 120. Where do we see women establishing a church? Maybe Priscilla supported her husband Aquila. we see evidence of that but I don’t think she established anything on her own.
You highlighted all who believe. What does….”all who believed” have to do with anything. The baptism mentioned there was water baptism. 3000 souls that day were baptized in water for to remove their sins.41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41-47 NKJ)
That SAME "born again experience" happens today to EVERY true believer in Christ, there are no second class Christians. There is only One Baptism for all in the ONE body of Christ.
The “Baptism in the Spirit” or “New Birth” Today Has Continued without change since Pentecost | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News
The "Baptism in the Spirit" or "New Birth" is the same today as on the Day of Pentecost On the day of Pentecost two separate groups received the Baptism in the Spirit, numbering 120 (Ac. 1:15; 2:1-4) and 3,000 (Ac. 2:38-41). The First Group (Ac. 1:15-22; 2:1-4) were followers of Jesus from the...endtimenews.net
Who above did the “many wonders and signs”?
The 3000? NO!
The 120? NO!
It specifically says….THE APOSTLES. Now why is that if everyone was “baptized with HS”?
Here is where it is:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
(Eph. 4:4-7 NKJ)
When Peter said to the 3,000
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
(Acts 2:38-39 NKJ)
Peter didn't lie. They had only "one hope of receiving the one Spirit becoming members of the one body of Christ."
Is English your native language. How could the simple message "there is one baptism" become different kinds of baptism in your belief system? Its odd and peculiar anyone manifest such a lack of understanding this simple text. Must be English is not your first language perhaps?
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I don’t see anything there that says…everybody received the baptism of the HS. I see grace was given. I do know that Paul laid his hands on those in Ephesus to impart spiritual gifts but that is different then receiving the baptism of the HS. The one baptism mentioned there is obviously water baptism. Water baptism is the only one commanded by Christ. He NEVER commanded HS baptism. So water baptism has to be the ONE baptism because it continues even today and if it isn’t then we have TWO baptisms and that would make Paul a liar which I don’t believe he was.
I can read just find. Try reading everything not just the pet passages you like. Peter was clear in that he told these believers that if they wanted their sins removed they needed to repent and be baptized (this is water baptism).
Then they were told that they would “receive the gift of the HS”. So, what removed their sins? What “saved” them? It wasn’t the HS. That, for those that can read English, obviously comes after removal of sins or salvation. So, no HS baptism does not have anything to do with ones salvation. This passage helps to prove that.
Now…
What is the “gift of the HS”? This is where I think it is good to let the Bible define what it means. I am having this discussion with another person right now on HOW we are to let the Bible define terms and not rely on some mans definition. We find this phrase in one other place. Acts 10
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Acts 10:44-46
The “gift of the HS” obviously included the miraculous. How did they know that the “gift” had been given? Because they could witness the miraculous works of the Spirit. It wasn’t something invisible that nobody could see or witness. This is letting the Bible define what it means and not letting man spin something for their own benefit. This is why I do not believe that all those who obey the gospel receive “the gift of the HS”. We don’t receive miraculous ability.
My next point about the promise, which I believe ties in to this, I will continue in my next post. I don’t want this one to be too long
When Peter said….For the ”promise” is unto you…. I believe he is speaking of the promise of Joel. He began this sermon back in vs 16 with this…
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:16-21
Was this a prophetic promise? Yes. This is the promise I think he is referring to and it has to do with the Spirit. Did NT Christian’s receive the Spirit? Yes. Through the “baptism“ of the HS? NO! It was through the laying on of hands by an apostle. I Believe we have Biblical support and proof of this in acts 8.
And did this promise go to…
”you” - the jews listening to this sermon
”your Children” - obviously Jewish children that they may have had at the time. He is basically saying to you and your families.
”All who are afar off” - Gentiles.
YES! All of these different converts received the miraculous through the laying on of hands of an apostle. Are there apostles alive today? No. Then this no longer applies to us. Can we still be saved and have our sins removed? Of course through belief, repentance and baptism in water. We no longer need the miraculous as they needed it in the first century.
So, NO we do NOT receive the “baptism of the HS“ today.
Your theory of different kinds of Baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT in the context. There is only ONE kind of baptism, the same the apostles received is precisely the one baptism believers receive today.
What is different is the "grace" each received, which truth manifested in the apostles by their supernatural gifts others didn't receive, or the purpose God ordained they accomplish when Christianity was being founded.
But false prophets dismayed believers then, claiming they didn't receive the ONE baptism everyone who becomes a member of the ONE body of Christ, receives.
That caused division and sadness in the church. THAT is why (to reject your second class baptism theory), Paul writes this text. He begins explaining that is what he is trying to do, stop people from believing in nonsense:
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But to each one of us grace (5485 χάρις charis) was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. (Eph. 4:3-7 NKJ)
5485 χάρις charis
Specifically of the divine grace and favor as exercised in conferring gifts, graces and benefits on man (2 Cor. 4:15; 8:1; James 4:6; 1 Pet. 5:5). Particularly as manifested in the benefits bestowed in and through Christ and His gospel (Acts 13:43; 2 Cor. 6:1; Eph. 4:7; Phil. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:10, 13.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.
Whether the apostles laid hands on believers, or they received the Holy Spirit as Peter or the apostles preached, it is the SAME Holy Spirit, effecting the "ONE Baptism" into the ONE Body of Christ.
Your "second class baptism" is not new, that is why Paul wrote as he did "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
False teachers make God's people sad, make them believe they didn't receive the same baptism of the Holy Spirit the apostles did, so they are second class Christians, inferior to those who manifest supernatural gifts.
Ezekiel has a genuine Word from the LORD against all those false prophets who God's people feel inferior. As Isaiah put its, like a "dry tree":
22 "Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life.
23 "Therefore you shall no longer envision futility nor practice divination; for I will deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am the LORD."'" (Ezek. 13:22-23 NKJ)
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off.
6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants-- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant--
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." (Isa. 56:3-7 NKJ)
You should repent of your error. Get good commentaries on the scripture, use them to alert you when your poor reading comprehension leads you astray.
You (and everyone) can immediately improve your understanding of the Bible, if you read the text multiple times in context, and ask yourself "what is the writer saying".
Don't read the Bible only to "proof text bogus theories", which is what "second class baptism is", a doctrine from deceiving spirits, a doctrine of demons:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, (1 Tim. 4:1 NKJ)
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All I know is that when the HS fell on ANYBODY they ALL could display the miraculous. The apostles in Acts 2. Cornelius in Acts 10.
Show me another instance where the HS fell on somebody.
I’ll be looking to read and study those passages and I promise I will read them in context. Multiple times. But I cant do that if you don’t provide me with the examples. I gave you two now you give me some.
The Holy Spirit is Infinite, Omnipresent. When an apostle lays hands on someone, that is a public selection of the person to a specific office or service. The Holy Spirit does NOT travel through the hands like electricity.
When the Infinite Omnipresent Spirit "falls" on someone, that is figurative language FOR US to understand Heaven has opened up to that person. God doesn't "physically" move from a higher location to "fall down" upon the person.
Rather, the Infinite Omnipresent God the Holy Spirit removes the dimension veling the believer's spirit and quickens it with eternal life.
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Pet. 1:4 KJV)
Then it can be said the believer's spirit was "translated into life":
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col. 1:13 KJV)
We don't physically move anywhere, but now it can be said we dwell in the dimension of heaven, but that reality won't be known by the physical creation until the Kingdom of God comes, "in the coming ages."
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph. 2:4-7 KJV)
Every born again believer, from the humblest to the most worthy, are all equally Christian, are all in the One Body of Christ. But they have different gifts according to the will of God, according to whether God made them apostles, prophets, teachers, ministers of charity, evangelists etc:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:11-13 KJV)
There are no second class Christians, everyone receives precisely the same "new birth". But God equips different believers for different jobs, and the jobs of the Twelve and 120 founding prophets, ended in the 1st century once the Bible was completed.
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph. 4:3-13 KJV)
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The Omnipresence of God is hard to imagine, until you consider this analogy. Everything that exists, does so like a "thought" in the Infinite Brain of God:
He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. (Col. 1:17 RPTE)
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:27-28 NKJ)
When you picture a person in your brain, he/she is "in you held together" by your power of thought. "In your brain he/she lives and moves and has being".
If that person you imagine lights a fire, it does not burn or touch your brain, even though you brain is omnipresent, everywhere the person is.
That is a good analogy for our "Matrix" (like in the Movie), it exists in the Infinite Brain of God but does not touch the Brain Substance at all. When a person is "born again", God "touches" the believer's spirit so it is made alive in the quickening power of the Holy Spirit. But God's Brain doesn't move to accomplish this, He lifts some of the separation dimension that separates God and Man. He dwells in the believer in the Person of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, when He dwells with a believer its total. There is no :"partial dwelling". The ONE Spirit inducts the Believer into the ONE Body of Christ. Everyone is born again equally, the same Holy Spirit indwells every believer equally.
So when you read the apostles laid hands on people, or the Holy Spirit "fell upon" someone: that was a public selection before men and angels. But the Holy Spirit (who is Omnipresent) enters into the believer without moving. The dimension separating is removed. AND the believer's spirit now exists in the dimension of heaven, he/she now sits in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. In the coming ages that spiritual reality will be known via the resurrection of the body...the Revealing of the Sons of God:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:19-23 NKJ)
Sounds like your argument has changed a little. What we do know is that in the first century those with the HS could actually demonstrate the miraculous. We cant, so now you have to say we receive some non miraculous in dwelling that saves us that nobody can confirm. NIce. Anybody can claim they have the HS and I just have to take their word for it. The Bible has never been that way.
Doing miracles was never the "proof" one is a child of God. Loving God, His Truth and His people is the proof. Only the Twelve Apostles did the signs and wonders, yet the text says "they believed....saved":
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:38-47 NKJ)
Amen.
It is your version of a bible that has robbed you of the truth.
I use the KJV.
Now you have the truth of what both Paul, and Jesus, have said.
Jesus died and rose again so I CAN convince others.
I don't fear the wrath of God for teaching men they can, indeed, obey God all the time.
I don't agree with you.
Every convert receives the gift of he Holy Ghost, as that is what Peter promised in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The only thing that will keep a man from receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is a lack of repentance from sin.
God will not reside in a polluted temple.
The miraculous was used to confirm the message.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Mark 16:17-20
The gifts of the Spirit in 1Cor 12 was given to NT Christians. These miraculous gifts were to be use to validate the message spoke. It was only the 12 on Pentecost doing signs and wonders but that ended up spreading to other converts. Stephen wasn’t an apostle.
And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Acts 6:8
Philip in acts 8 wasn’t an apostle.
Paul used his ability to pass on the gifts of the Spirit as proof he was an apostle.
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
2 Corinthians 12:12-13
And yes your text above calls them believers. When does it call them “believers”? After they heard, believed, repented, and were baptized in water for the remission of sins, they were then added to the church. This is the pattern of salvation for a NT christian.
Do you think the”gift of the HS” includes the miraculous? The apostles on Pentecost received the miraculous but not the 120. That is confirmed in acts 2:43.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17 KJV)
Singular "Creature", NOT plural "creatures". And the ALL in context refers to all "the old things" "are become new".
Oh boy, here we go again. The King James Bible is just one of many translations. It is not and never was the Word of God. It was created by a secular king who was displeased with the (excellent) Geneva Bible, primarily becuase the side notes diminished the importance of secular authority. The KJV has been modified a number of times and, in my opinion, has "had its day".
FYI, neither Paul nor Jesus (nor anyone else in the Bible) spoke, wrote, or thought in early 17th Century Englyshe. And nobody speaks, writes, or thinks that way today.
The KJV was "the" word of God for over 400 years, to the common man.
I can't imagine God leaving the world without His word for any amount of time, so I value what He provided.
It seems to me that the subsequent versions have watered the message down significantly.
What sayest thou?
Doesn't that cause you to realize that in whatever language the ACTUAL word of God comes in, that it has all been controlled by God?
Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, Swahili,...what will God allow to be left out?
Not the gist of "love others over self".
The KJV is the most direct version of that message.
Yes, I do.
How do we know that?
Hardly.
Acts 19:6 shows a different set of facts..."And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
The "miraculous" was still in evidence.
As the verse is of a "singular" nature, "he is a new...", I agree with you.
I agree again with your second sentence.
My old things included family and friends, unfortunately, but I have never been alone.
I especially appreciate my new divine nature.