Baptism in the Spirit: The experience

[jaybo]

The KJV was "the" word of God for over 400 years, to the common man.
I can't imagine God leaving the world without His word for any amount of time, so I value what He provided.
It seems to me that the subsequent versions have watered the message down significantly.

What sayest thou?
Doesn't that cause you to realize that in whatever language the ACTUAL word of God comes in, that it has all been controlled by God?
Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English, Swahili,...what will God allow to be left out?
Not the gist of "love others over self".
The KJV is the most direct version of that message.

These are just your opinions. Nothing more. If you think that subsequent versions have watered the message down significantly, fine. But that is just your opinion, and I disagree.

Then you contradict yourself by saying that "in whatever language the ACTUAL word of God comes in, that it has all been controlled by God?" So, Bibles in conventional English have been controlled by God. Incidentally, where does one find "the ACTUAL word of God"? No originals exist, and those that do sometimes differ from each other.

I have no idea what your saying "Not the gist of "love others over self" means in this discussion. Followed by "The KJV is the most direct version of that message", which is both out of context, subjective, and IMHO wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

As the verse is of a "singular" nature, "he is a new...", I agree with you.
I agree again with your second sentence.
My old things included family and friends, unfortunately, but I have never been alone.
I especially appreciate my new divine nature.

"My old things" = "Eisegesis"

noun​

1. A subjective method of interpretation by introducing one's own opinions into the original: opposed to exegesis.
2. An interpretation, especially of Scripture, that reflects the personal ideas or viewpoint of the interpreter; reading something into a text that isn't there. Compare exegesis.
3. personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas

To understand what Paul meant by "Old Things" you must do "Exegesis"

noun

1. Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.
2. The exposition or interpretation of any literary production or passage; more particularly, the exposition or interpretation of Scripture. See exegetical theology, under exegetical.
3. A discourse intended to explain or illustrate a subject; specifically, an exercise in Biblical interpretation sometimes prescribed to students of theology when on examination preliminary to licensure or ordination.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful]

These are just your opinions. Nothing more. If you think that subsequent versions have watered the message down significantly, fine. But that is just your opinion, and I disagree.

Then you contradict yourself by saying that "in whatever language the ACTUAL word of God comes in, that it has all been controlled by God?" So, Bibles in conventional English have been controlled by God. Incidentally, where does one find "the ACTUAL word of God"? No originals exist, and those that do sometimes differ from each other.

I have no idea what your saying "Not the gist of "love others over self" means in this discussion. Followed by "The KJV is the most direct version of that message", which is both out of context, subjective, and IMHO wrong.

If everybody's POV is subjective, how can one tell which is true?
The first place I look at in any newer version of the bible is 2 Tim 3:17..."That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
If any other word than "perfect" is used for "perfect", I know it is not of God.

 

[Hopeful]

"My old things" = "Eisegesis"

noun​

1. A subjective method of interpretation by introducing one's own opinions into the original: opposed to exegesis.
2. An interpretation, especially of Scripture, that reflects the personal ideas or viewpoint of the interpreter; reading something into a text that isn't there. Compare exegesis.
3. personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas

To understand what Paul meant by "Old Things" you must do "Exegesis"

noun

1. Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text.
2. The exposition or interpretation of any literary production or passage; more particularly, the exposition or interpretation of Scripture. See exegetical theology, under exegetical.
3. A discourse intended to explain or illustrate a subject; specifically, an exercise in Biblical interpretation sometimes prescribed to students of theology when on examination preliminary to licensure or ordination.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15 NKJ)

Amen to that.
What "old" thing are you hinting at was retained after your death and recreation?

 

[jaybo]

If everybody's POV is subjective, how can one tell which is true?
The first place I look at in any newer version of the bible is 2 Tim 3:17..."That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
If any other word than "perfect" is used for "perfect", I know it is not of God.

And every time I read 2 Timothy 2:15 -- "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I know it is a poor translation.

The KJV uses archaic Englyshe. The meaning of words have changed over time and are therefore easily misunderstood. Your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:17 is a prime example. Here is the correct translation of that verse (and the preceding one, in context): "Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work." NET Translator's note on "capable": This word is positioned for special emphasis; it carries the sense of “complete, competent, able to meet all demands.”

One of the more significant problems with the KJV is chopping the Biblical text into separate verse, as you have here. That was never the format of God's word and leads to all kinds of errors, as you have shown here.

 

[jaybo]

Here is 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the newest version of the NRSV (to become available for purchase on August 16, but can now be read on biblegateway.com), "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work." Again, "perfect", as shown in the KJV, is wrong. The meaning is "capable" or "proficient". "Perfect" is archaic Englyshe and misunderstood, as you clearly show.

 

[Cooper]

Do not forget people, the gifts of God are irrevocable. What was given to the early church is ours for today.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:29 NKJV)

 

[Hopeful]

And every time I read 2 Timothy 2:15 -- "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." I know it is a poor translation.

What is your "correct" translation?

The KJV uses archaic Englyshe. The meaning of words have changed over time and are therefore easily misunderstood. Your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:17 is a prime example. Here is the correct translation of that verse (and the preceding one, in context): "Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work." NET Translator's note on "capable": This word is positioned for special emphasis; it carries the sense of “complete, competent, able to meet all demands.”

One of the more significant problems with the KJV is chopping the Biblical text into separate verse, as you have here. That was never the format of God's word and leads to all kinds of errors, as you have shown here.

Your version has changed "perfect" to imperfection in 2 Tim 3:17.
That is not the result God desires.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is 2 Timothy 3:16-17 in the newest version of the NRSV (to become available for purchase on August 16, but can now be read on biblegateway.com), "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work." Again, "perfect", as shown in the KJV, is wrong. The meaning is "capable" or "proficient". "Perfect" is archaic Englyshe and misunderstood, as you clearly show.

It is a denial of what a Christian can be.
Perfect.
That is the result of "the inspiration of God".

 

[jaybo]

What is your "correct" translation?

Your version has changed "perfect" to imperfection in 2 Tim 3:17.
That is not the result God desires.

That is ridiculous. If you were honest about it you would say that the KJV translated the word in the early text(s) as "perfect", whereas modern translations translate the same word as "complete" or "capable". They definitely did not change the word from the KJV. What has changed is the meaning of the English word over four centuries.

Also, there is no such thing as a perfect translation. The languages are very different -- vocabulary, verb tenses, idioms, sentence structure, etc. -- so translators have to make many decisions about how to translate the early sources -- and there are many and have significant differences -- into the language that people use and understand. Since much has changed since early 17th century England, the KJV is clearly misinterpreted by some, including yourself. "Perfect" meant "complete" in 1611; today it means " having no mistake or flaw". The meaning of the word has changed, something you need to realize.

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What is my "correct" translation of the word "study" 2 Timothy 2:15? The NET has that verse as "Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately." The NRSV has it as "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth." The NASB has it as "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who]does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." The NIV has it as "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." So the meaning in contemporary English is clear: make every effort, do your best, be diligent". Notice it's not my correct translation, but the translation of modern Biblical scholars.

 

[jaybo]

It is a denial of what a Christian can be.
Perfect.
That is the result of "the inspiration of God".

Nonsense! See my previous post.

 

[Cnkw3]

Yes, I do.

How do we know that?

We know that a couple of ways but through the verse above we know it because it says.
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:43
It doesn’t say…signs and wonders were done by the 120. Or by anybody else at this time. It only mentions the apostles doing signs and wonders on Pentecost.

Hardly.
Acts 19:6 shows a different set of facts..."And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
The "miraculous" was still in evidence.

Yes! is Paul alive today? Then how would you get the “gift of the Spirit” then?

 

[jaybo]

I have personal experience receiving gifts of the Spirit. I was an atheist in 1977. I was hospitalized with severe asthma and the doctors couldn't break the bronchial spasm. The pastor with whom I had been frequently arguing came to my hospital room, read my some Scripture (Matthew 11;:28-30) and prayed "Jesus, heal this man". The spasm broke immediately and I was healed by Christ. A day later, a friend dropped by and asked me if I had received my prayer language. I said "no", then prayed for it and immediately began speaking in tongues (which I still do today on a daily basis).

So I was healed and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, as well as one of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. Nobody will ever convince me that the gifts aren't for modern life. I know the truth first hand!

 

[Hopeful]

Nonsense! See my previous post.

Do you feel obedience to Jesus' command in Matt 5:48 is not worth pursuing?
Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

 

[Hopeful]

That is ridiculous. If you were honest about it you would say that the KJV translated the word in the early text(s) as "perfect", whereas modern translations translate the same word as "complete" or "capable". They definitely did not change the word from the KJV. What has changed is the meaning of the English word over four centuries.

Also, there is no such thing as a perfect translation. The languages are very different -- vocabulary, verb tenses, idioms, sentence structure, etc. -- so translators have to make many decisions about how to translate the early sources -- and there are many and have significant differences -- into the language that people use and understand. Since much has changed since early 17th century England, the KJV is clearly misinterpreted by some, including yourself. "Perfect" meant "complete" in 1611; today it means " having no mistake or flaw". The meaning of the word has changed, something you need to realize.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is my "correct" translation of the word "study" 2 Timothy 2:15? The NET has that verse as "Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately." The NRSV has it as "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth." The NASB has it as "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who]does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." The NIV has it as "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." So the meaning in contemporary English is clear: make every effort, do your best, be diligent". Notice it's not my correct translation, but the translation of modern Biblical scholars.

All those versions of the bible have one thing in common, they lead nobody to perfection.
If folks don't know of the command/exhortation how will they know it is possible?

 

[Hopeful]

We know that a couple of ways but through the verse above we know it because it says.
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Acts 2:43
It doesn’t say…signs and wonders were done by the 120. Or by anybody else at this time. It only mentions the apostles doing signs and wonders on Pentecost.

You are arguing from a blank page.
The Acts 19 scripture I supplied earlier proves others got the gift of tongues with the gift of the Holy Ghost

Yes! is Paul alive today? Then how would you get the “gift of the Spirit” then?

It is the gift of God for both a real turn from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The Spirit of God will not reside in a polluted temple.

 

[Hopeful]

I have personal experience receiving gifts of the Spirit. I was an atheist in 1977. I was hospitalized with severe asthma and the doctors couldn't break the bronchial spasm. The pastor with whom I had been frequently arguing came to my hospital room, read my some Scripture (Matthew 11;:28-30) and prayed "Jesus, heal this man". The spasm broke immediately and I was healed by Christ. A day later, a friend dropped by and asked me if I had received my prayer language. I said "no", then prayed for it and immediately began speaking in tongues (which I still do today on a daily basis).

So I was healed and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, as well as one of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. Nobody will ever convince me that the gifts aren't for modern life. I know the truth first hand!

I pray in the name of Jesus Christ that God will liberally protect you and continue to keep you from all harm.

 

[Cnkw3]

I have personal experience receiving gifts of the Spirit. I was an atheist in 1977. I was hospitalized with severe asthma and the doctors couldn't break the bronchial spasm. The pastor with whom I had been frequently arguing came to my hospital room, read my some Scripture (Matthew 11;:28-30) and prayed "Jesus, heal this man". The spasm broke immediately and I was healed by Christ. A day later, a friend dropped by and asked me if I had received my prayer language. I said "no", then prayed for it and immediately began speaking in tongues (which I still do today on a daily basis).

So I was healed and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, as well as one of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. Nobody will ever convince me that the gifts aren't for modern life. I know the truth first hand!

Did your pastor friend go into any other rooms and heal them? If not, why not? Seems kinda selfish to have that ability and help one person with asthma. Jesus didnt do that. we are told that all was healed by Peter. I do believe prayer can work. I do believe that people can be healed. Forgive me if I don’t believe that you or your pastor friend have any power to do anything. Speaking in tongues? So you can speak, fluently, different languages for which you’ve never studied a minute for? If not then what you are doing is gibberish.

 

[Cnkw3]

You are arguing from a blank page.
The Acts 19 scripture I supplied earlier proves others got the gift of tongues with the gift of the Holy Ghost

I don’t see how acts 19 proves anything. Paul laid his hands on people and they could perform the miraculous. Can you do that today? No. Then why are you appealing to acts 19 for anything?

It is the gift of God for both a real turn from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
The Spirit of God will not reside in a polluted temple.

So you receive the Spirit directly from God? Then you must be able to do the miraculous? Because all those in the first century that received the Spirit directly could demonstrate that they had received the Spirit. My guess is you and others cant demonstrate squat. So you can tell me you got the Spirit all day along but if you cant demonstrate then its meaningless. I know and have known many a people who were not “polluted” and they NEVER received a thing.

 

[jaybo]

All those versions of the bible have one thing in common, they lead nobody to perfection.
If folks don't know of the command/exhortation how will they know it is possible?

That is simply your opinion. You are stuck in translation made over 400 years ago; I am not.