Born again = How

[Walpole]

Walpole :

Reconsider your 2 questions, as they are theologically flawed, and i believe its because you are just confused.
Let me explain....

There is one verse in the entire bible, where Jesus says...."you must be born again". and then Jesus says, "born of water, and of THE Spirit"
However, He does not explain how to be born again.
Later, Paul explains how, as "my Gospel".
Most Catholics are confused about this, and you are not the exception.

Let me say that again.....Jesus does not explain HOW to be born again, in the only verse in the BIBLE where the term "born again" is found.
All Jesus says is that you must be born of water and of THE Spirit, that is a 2nd birth, independent of being born of your mother, which is the 1st Birth.

Listen..., Christ just heard that Nicodemus understand the 1st birth....>"of MOTHER"......so, you didnt notice that He does not correct that with...>"water baptism" theology ........ Instead, He contrasts the earthly 1st birth with the SPIRITUAL Birth, that is Birth #2. "you must be BORN AGAIN".
See that one? Thats #2.

So, you are asking a question that does not offer an answer by Jesus, and you dont realize it.
And you keep posting your same confusion.

Thank you so much for FINALLY answering my question. Our Blessed Lord's DOES answer Nicodemus' question as to HOW man can be born again. Our Lord says two things are required for man to be born again. Here is the scene using the KJV...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

----> Our Blessed Lord now describes how man is born again in John 3:5: Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


So our Blessed Lord is explicit that two things are required for a man to be born again and thus enter the Kingdom of God: Water and the Holy Ghost. This is the answer to my first question.

Christians call this ritual where man is reborn with water and the Holy Ghost baptism. This is the answer to my second question. St. John leaves no doubt that being born again is baptism because after this encounter, what does Jesus and the Apostles do? They set out to baptize.

And where do they do it? In Aenon.


As for St. Paul, first of all he calls lots of things "my gospel," for example he calls the fact that man will face judgement "my gospel" in Romans 2:16. He also called Jesus Christ being from the line of David and rising from the dead "my gospel" in 2 Tim 2:8. So "my gospel" is not limited to one specific tenet of the Christian faith.


Furthermore, here is St. Paul affirming baptismal regeneration...

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless.” (Eph 5:25-27)

“He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)


Here is Ananias instructing St. Paul about it...

“Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.” (Acts 22:16)


And we know that St. Peter said baptism saves you...

1 Peter 3:20-21 ---> ...when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...


It is in baptism where man is born again, which gives him "newness of life" as St. Paul says in Romans 6:4.

And regarding your 2nd Question.....i have answered it, but, i didnt answer it according to "cult of Mary" Theology, so, that is why you are not able to understand it or believe it.
(See "wikipedia" or "catholic History, Ephesus 5ad, "Church Fathers history", if you dont understand the term "cult of Mary")

Red herring.

And one more thing.
There is a book, its the Douay Rheims book, and its a situation that manuscript evidence scholars define as "corrupted".
It came from the Latin Vulgate created by Jerome,, and He terribly mistranslated some key doctrine.
For example, he mistranslated "repentance" as "penance" and because of this horrible error, 2 things happened.

1.) Catholics are performing penance , and its based on a mistranslation created by Jerome.

2.) Martin Luther, was initially inspired to realize the "cult of mary" was in grievous theological and spiritual error, based on Him realizing Jerome's mistranslation of the word "repentance" into "penance".
Soon after He found more and more and more theological corruption created by Jerome, and God led him out of the "cult of mary", and here we are today, Protestants, free from it.

3.) The worst "cult of Mary" theological error that is found in the corrupt Douay Rheims, is this one....."born again of water".
See that?
Let me show you again......>John 3.....Douay Rheims...>"born AGAIN of water".
Notice the word "again" that creates the heresy that the water causes the Spiritual Birth?
Do you see it?
That word "again", is not found in any Greek Text, or in any real bible.
Its a "cult of mary" insertion, that is devised to create the false theology of "baptismal regeneration".
You are familiar with that one.
This is one more error found in the "Latin" that Martin Luther despised, as he hated the lie.....as this lie, discredits the blood of Jesus, by replacing the Holy Blood Atonement with "water baptism".
And that is this.....Galatians 1:8

This is another red herring and a shotgun fallacy. Let's stick with born again and what it means.

 

[Bethel]

Christians call this ritual where man is reborn with water and the Holy Ghost baptism. T

I already pointed out that you as a Catholic have been taught by a book of errors, that "baptismal regeneration" is salvation.

And i already stated that Paul said, "Jesus sent me not to water baptize".
And i pointed out that Jesus never baptized anyone.
And you forgot that the dying thief on the Cross was never water baptized and he's in heaven right now.

If water baptism could save you, then every time a person took a shower, they'd be born again.
If the city water supply was Salvation, then why didn't it die on the Cross for all our sin?

Wake up, Walpole.

Also, There is no such thing as water causing "holy ghost baptism".
That is charismatic-pentecostal speech, that has nothing to do with the Cross.
Just read the Acts of the Apostles, and discover that all "spiritual infilling" is caused by believing the Gospel first.
Read Philip telling the Enuch that "yes you may be water baptized if you have BELIEVED WITH ALL YOUR HEART, first. ! <. Acts 8.
See, water baptism, in the NT, always follows being born again. It never causes it........never.

The baptism that saves, is to be baptized into Christ's Spirit, which is not water doing it, but its the Holy Spirit of God that causes the new Spiritual birth.
This is to be born again into God's Holy Spirit, by God's Holy Spirit.
You insult this truth, when you pretend that water is the Holy Spirit.
Dont do that.

So, when someone like you replaces the Spirit of God with water baptism, as a theology you are teaching, then you are contradicting the Cross, denying the Grace of God, and disrespecting the Blood atonement.
Never do that in public.

 

[JLB]

The Gospel? Oh, you mean this…

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 NKJV
[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, [2] by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you-unless you believed in vain. [3] For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, [4] and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

..by which we are born again.

Why did you cut off what Paul was teaching the Corinthins?


For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8


Paul is teaching the Corinthian Church about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ according to the scriptures, and that He was seen by witnesses, proving His resurrection, which is the subject matter of Chapter 15.

Paul isnt preaching the Gospel to them because he already did that and they have already believed the Gospel and have been saved.




JLB

 

[Walpole]

I already pointed out that you as a Catholic have been taught by a book of errors, that "baptismal regeneration" is salvation.

And i already stated that Paul said, "Jesus sent me not to water baptize".
And i pointed out that Jesus never baptized anyone.
And you forgot that the dying thief on the Cross was never water baptized and he's in heaven right now.

If water baptism could save you, then every time a person took a shower, they'd be born again.
If the city water supply was Salvation, then why didn't it die on the Cross for all our sin?

Wake up, Walpole.

Also, There is no such thing as water causing "holy ghost baptism".
That is charismatic-pentecostal speech, that has nothing to do with the Cross.
Just read the Acts of the Apostles, and discover that all "spiritual infilling" is caused by believing the Gospel first.
Read Philip telling the Enuch that "yes you may be water baptized if you have BELIEVED WITH ALL YOUR HEART, first. ! <. Acts 8.
See, water baptism, in the NT, always follows being born again. It never causes it........never.

The baptism that saves, is to be baptized into Christ's Spirit, which is not water doing it, but its the Holy Spirit of God that causes the new Spiritual birth.
This is to be born again into God's Holy Spirit, by God's Holy Spirit.
You insult this truth, when you pretend that water is the Holy Spirit.
Dont do that.

So, when someone like you replaces the Spirit of God with water baptism, as a theology you are teaching, then you are contradicting the Cross, denying the Grace of God, and disrespecting the Blood atonement.
Never do that in public.

The idea of baptism sans water was an invention of the Zwingli, who boldly stated in his De Baptismo in 1525 that the Apostles and the fathers were actually wrong on baptism...

"In this matter of baptism - if I may be pardoned for saying it - I can only conclude that all the doctors have been in error from the time of the Apostles...At many points we shall have to tread a different path from that taken either by ancient or more modern writers or by our own contemporaries."

There's the genesis for the Protestant attack on baptism.


Baptism, by definition, necessitates water. But water by itself is not a baptism and exercises no power on its own; for it is but a material sign of what is communicated spiritually. It is only with the Holy Spirit does it become baptism. For baptism requires water and the Holy Spirit. (cf. John 3:5)


At the end of St. Matthew's Gospel, our Blessed Lord instructs His Apostles to teach and baptize all nations. He gives the Apostles the the proper form for administering the sacrament, "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Mt 28:19)

---> Do you know of anyone using this form for a baptism apart from the use of water?

 

[Bethel]

The idea of baptism sans water was an invention of the Zwingli,

Being born again Spiritually, is how God redeems a person.
This isn't an "Idea", its "the gift of Salvation".

Jesus never water baptized anyone.
Paul , who wrote most of the New Testament, said..."Christ didn't send me to water baptize".
I can tell this is brand new news to you.

The idea of "water regeneration" or "baptismal regeneration" this heresy, is found in one book.
The douay rheims.
Dont believe it.

Instead, come to believe that the Holy Spirit of God, births the spirit of a person, into His Spirit.
This is to be "born again", spiritually, as obviously, the body is not born again, as yours an mine is headed to the grave.
You realize this, Walpole?
So, the "new Birth" that creates a "new Creation" In Christ"........is a Spiritual Birth.
Now, you can understand that the spirit in inside your body? And you can comprehend that water only touches your body and not your Spirit?

So, what touches your Spirit?
Its not water. ...>Its the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[crossnote]

Why did you cut off what Paul was teaching the Corinthins?

I really didn't want to quote the whole 2 Letters to the Corinthians. Besides, I was focusing on the Gospel, not the eyewitnesses to the Gospel event.

Paul is teaching the Corinthian Church about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ according to the scriptures, and that He was seen by witnesses, proving His resurrection, which is the subject matter of Chapter 15.

Right, but the eyewitnesses are not what saves us...they are instrumental in affirming the events.

Paul isnt preaching the Gospel to them because he already did that and they have already believed the Gospel and have been saved.

Correct, but I quoted 1Cor 15:1-4 because it most succinctly reveals the saving aspects of the Gospel.

 

[ezrider]

Sorry you can't see/read that the unification with Jesus we enjoy happens at baptism...as per Rom 6:3..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
And again, in Gal 3:27..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
Of course, baptism without faith is just a bath.

But you didn't answer my question.
What happened to the old you when you were reborn?

As per Rom 6:6, my old self (including body) was destroyed at my baptism into Christ..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
I am now a 100% new creature, just like 2 Cor 5:17 says..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

For the body to be destroyed and become born again as a new creature in Christ, then you must first know yourself as the Man of Sin, the son of perdition.

 

[Hopeful]

Notice that your verse says to be "baptized into Jesus".
Your denomination changes this to "baptized into water', as how they manipulate the theology.

I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else.
Water is used to baptize folks into Jesus.
Water is one of the three that bear witness on earth.
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
(1 John 5:8)
These three are one.

So, is "water" Jesus?
Is it?
If it is, then continue to believe what you believe.
Thats on you.

Water is the means of entry into Jesus Christ, as admonished by Peter in Acts 2:38 and Philip in Acts 8:36-38 and Paul in Acts 19:5: and also the vehicle for our crucifixion with Christ; destroying the old man and allowing the new man to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4,6)

You write so much of faith, but don't seem to have faith in but one aspect of Christianity.
Why is that?
It reminds me of a baseball player who, after singling, is afraid to go to second base.
First steps are just that, but other steps of faith are to follow.

 

[Hopeful]

For the body to be destroyed and become born again as a new creature in Christ, then you must first know yourself as the Man of Sin, the son of perdition.

I'ld like to know what you base that on.
Do you have a scrip' or two?

As it is a bit of a derail, how about starting another thread on that topic?

 

[ezrider]

I'ld like to know what you base that on.
Do you have a scrip' or two?

As it is a bit of a derail, how about starting another thread on that topic?

It's not a derail.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[crossnote]

It's not a derail.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

That has absolutely nothing with being born again. It's a major derail.
Someone is trolling.

 

[Hopeful]

It's not a derail.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

"For the body to be destroyed and become born again as a new creature in Christ, then you must first know yourself as the Man of Sin, the son of perdition." (ezrider)
I do not see how those two posts intertwine?

Why must the "son of perdition" be revealed before a man can be reborn?
Why must I "know myself" as the son of perdition?

Rebirth has been provided already by God and His Son.
I do realize that before my rebirth there was nothing in me worth saving.
But the man of sin in the verses you posted is far worse than anything I may have once been.
I could have possibly seen myself as "a" son of perdition. but not "the" son of perdition.

Either way, I am born again now, thanks to the grace and love and power of God, to the glory of the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[ezrider]

"For the body to be destroyed and become born again as a new creature in Christ, then you must first know yourself as the Man of Sin, the son of perdition." (ezrider)
I do not see how those two posts intertwine?

Why must the "son of perdition" be revealed before a man can be reborn?
Why must I "know myself" as the son of perdition?

Rebirth has been provided already by God and His Son.
I do realize that before my rebirth there was nothing in me worth saving.
But the man of sin in the verses you posted is far worse than anything I may have once been.
I could have possibly seen myself as "a" son of perdition. but not "the" son of perdition.

Either way, I am born again now, thanks to the grace and love and power of God, to the glory of the name of Jesus Christ.

The be born of the Spirit, the body of sin must first be destroyed; to become dead to sin. But the man of sin is not yet dead to sin, the man of sin still answers to the law. The man of sin continues to bring his offering before the cross, as the blood of Christ answers for those who are under the law. But it was the law that demanded blood, the law of sin and death. If you are born again, then you have become dead to sin and death. When you are born of the Spirit, then death has been swallowed up in victory.

But the man of sin, why he has the word of God, right there in the holy scripture. He reads it daily, studies it, showing himself that he is God, judging the very words of God. The gospel of Christ was all manner of sins in the flesh are forgiven you; The man of sin according to the law judges after the manner of the flesh.

 

[Hopeful]

The be born of the Spirit, the body of sin must first be destroyed; to become dead to sin. But the man of sin is not yet dead to sin, the man of sin still answers to the law.

I guess that is where we differ.
Rom 6:6 says..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
My old man/body of sin was destroyed.

The man of sin continues to bring his offering before the cross, as the blood of Christ answers for those who are under the law. But it was the law demanded blood, the law of sin and death. If you are born again, then you have become dead to sin and death. When you are born of the Spirit, then death has been swallowed up in victory.

Thank God , but it has already happened for those in Christ.
As it is written..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Rom 8:2)

But the man of sin, why he has the word of God, right there in the holy scripture. He reads it daily, studies it, showing himself that he is God, judging the very words of God. The gospel of Christ was... all manner of sins in the flesh are forgiven you;
The man of sin, according to the law, judges after the manner of the flesh.

How does studying scripture equate to "showing that he is God"?
You have lost me there.

 

[ezrider]

How does studying scripture equate to "showing that he is God"?
You have lost me there.

There are some here who hold the bible the be an authority higher than God himself. All they can do is spit out bible verses at you like they are God himself telling you his word. They think their interpretations are superior to others because they they claim the "holy spirit" is teaching them. But the man of sin can not separate himself from his own ego, and in the word he finds his own glory in the ministration of condemnation.

 

[crossnote]

There are some here who hold the bible the be an authority higher than God himself. All they can do is spit out bible verses at you like they are God himself telling you his word. They think their interpretations are superior to others because they they claim the "holy spirit" is teaching them. But the man of sin can not separate himself from his own ego, and in the word he finds his own glory in the ministration of condemnation.

So I guess your interpretation tops them all?
BTW, the Holy Spirit does teach believers…


John 14:26 NKJV
[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


Jeremiah 31:31-34 NKJV
[31] "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah- [32] not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. [33] But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [34] No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[Bethel]

I'm afraid you have me mixed up with someone else.
Water is used to baptize folks into Jesus.

Water gets you wet.
Thats it.

Its the Spirit of God that baptizes the spirit of a person into Christ.
To be born again is to be born again Spiritually, and water can't provide a spiritual birth.
You noted that Jesus who is God, never water baptized anyone.
Figure that one out, and you are on your way to understanding the Cross.

 

[Hopeful]

There are some here who hold the bible the be an authority higher than God himself. All they can do is spit out bible verses at you like they are God himself telling you his word. They think their interpretations are superior to others because they they claim the "holy spirit" is teaching them. But the man of sin can not separate himself from his own ego, and in the word he finds his own glory in the ministration of condemnation.

That is an interesting take.
Do you consider the bible the word of God?
I do.

 

[Hopeful]

Water gets you wet.
Thats it.

Without faith in the provisions of God, it is.
But to me, it is both the blood of Christ and the grave into which I was buried.
By faith.

Its the Spirit of God that baptizes the spirit of a person into Christ.
To be born again is to be born again Spiritually, and water can't provide a spiritual birth.
You noted that Jesus who is God, never water baptized anyone.
Figure that one out, and you are on your way to understanding the Cross.

If it were a worthless endeavor, why didn't Jesus forbid His apostles from baptizing men unto repentance from sin?
Why did He command baptism, before His ascension, in Matt 28:19, Luke 24:47, and Mark 16:16?
Your POV differs from scripture.

 

[ezrider]

That is an interesting take.
Do you consider the bible the word of God?
I do.

Yes, I do consider the bible to be the word of God. But I also know it to be the same as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I prefer my fruit in the King James flavor; there is just something poetic I find about it! But I also understand there is a temptation that comes with this knowledge, a temptation that Adam succumbed to: that he should become as God judging between good and evil, and it was for this cause that he was kicked out of the garden. Do you think the Lord would grant you access to the Tree of Life while still feasting upon the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?

This is the temptation of the man of sin, who taketh his knowledge from the words of the book, then sits in the temple of God (his Heart) showing himself that he is God. And God said he would send them strong delusion so that they would believe it.

So many are caught up under the law and the written word that they have become blinded by sin in the flesh, so that they consider not their sin against the Spirit. Even Jesus warned, because of iniquity, the love of many would wax cold.

When Adam took for himself the knowledge of good and evil, his eyes became opened to sin. And when his eyes became opened to sin, he also obtained the knowledge of how to cover that sin. I wonder, what kept Adam from just saying to the Lord, I'm sorry, I screwed up and now I'm all confused. But instead he took for himself a covering and then hid from the Lord.