ezra
Member
and i have compared born again with what i have ..its a spiritual BIRTH and that is what is important to me born of the spirit and the water ..i have heard water explained several different ways ..i do my research
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Born Again?
- Thread starter JohnDB
- Start date
No ma’am.
I’m not saying that at all.
This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6
1 John 5:6, John is saying that Jesus came by water and and blood, which refers to the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
This same John who said “came by water” also said “born of water” in John 3:5 to again refer to natural birth, and “born of the Spirit” to refer to Spiritual birth.
I’m just showing how John used this phrase.
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6
Born of water refers to born of the flesh - natural birth
Born of the Spirit refers to Spirtual birth.
IOW Jesus is using natural birth (earthly things) to teach Nicodemus about Spiritual birth (heavenly things).
JLB
The scripture says “born again”, so it would be you changing what Jess said.
Secondly, it would be a stretch for us to shallow your theory, because Nicodemus is response to Jesus saying you must be born again, plainly answered “Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Why would ask such a thing if Jesus had said you must be born above?
JLB
How about John 3:5-6?
Here let me post it for you.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-6
Or 1 Peter 1:22-23
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23
We are born again by obeying the Gospel message, through the Spirit.
- that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
John,
Which scripture are you referring to regarding the
"obviously you are born from above" ??
And, I would like to explain why this thread is very important.
I think this idea of being "born again" has gotten way out of hand. I know persons that believe they are born again but do not have to obey God. Persons that say they are born again but do not demonstrate this new birth.
I don't even think the different phrasing of it makes the difference, but how it's being taught. However, we want to state is....it is being born of the spirit.
Some of my bibles say born again, and some say born of above. YLT says born of above, my Italian bible says born of above. It might make more sense because God is above,,,the better thing is from above,,,our aspiration is above. If we say born again......again into what? Then it has to be explained as it being a spiritual birth.
To me, to be born from above OR born again, means a person has changed... He is now IN CHRIST....it's a different birth....it will cause a transformation....
I'm not sure I'm expressing myself...I find it's rather difficult to express spiritual ideas.
Comment?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
P.S.
Isn't being born from above a process?
" you must go through the PROCESS of becoming born from above".
(It can also be immediate)
JohnDB
Member
The notion of a "new creation" is a solid concept. Never once have I ever not taken that concept with serious reverence. It's talked about in other scriptures, just not this one. This concept is similar to ones spoken about when Gentiles became adopted by Jews for the purpose of converting to Judaism in different writings...but it's not scripture.
Nicodemus was neither a Gentile nor an unbeliever in Jesus. So it has no place in this conversation.
But he was incredulous at what Jesus was saying.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
So would you agree that this concept of a new birth is taken too lightly today? I find this very disturbing.
I worry that some may be lost due to incorrect doctrine...not that doctrine saves us, but if we don't obey...how could we be saved. I know persons that act worse than atheists and then call themselves Christian.
Nicodemus also didn't know the concept because the pharisees did not teach it. They taught keeping the Mosaic Law, but with no internal love for God,and thus no change.
JohnDB
Member
And this is the difference between us.
Nicodemus liked Jesus, was trying to befriend him. Actually had love in his heart. He was very different than his counterparts. (One out of how many?)
He showed up during social hour...not the middle of the night when people were sleeping...but after sundown when people were socializing after a day's work. Jesus was sleeping because he often prayed through the night. This evening was different...he was asleep early.
Then Nicodemus begins to immediately praise Jesus for his work.
Up to this point Nicodemus has nothing against him...it's not empty praise. Nicodemus would gain nothing by it and everything to lose by saying such things. Most Rabbi were fierce competitors with each other. Complimenting another would be out of character...but yet Nicodemus is doing so.
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Here is the thing. One actually has to be born from their mothers womb (water and blood) to be someone that actually exist in the flesh (earthly). (IE: water and blood). This is how Jesus came into the world through water and blood born of a virgin that He would be the word of God born of flesh.
Born again is different than born of water as Jesus said, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This is the Spiritual rebirth, born again, born from above of the Spirit.
We have to separate the born of water and born again of the Spirit as it's a Spiritual rebirth that has nothing to do with being baptized in water, but that one has to be born of water and blood first (flesh) and then be born again from above of the Spirit. This is why the word baptized is not in John 3:5-7.
Parentheses are my own:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be (first) born of water (amniotic fluid and blood from the hymen) IE: flesh as this has to come first in order to exist as flesh/earthly as this is how Jesus had to come into the world..................... and of the Spirit, (being born from above by God's Spirit entering us) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
JohnDB
Member
But what about Leviticus 12?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It was obvious to N that Jesus was different.
Mathew 7:29 Jesus taught as one with authority.
N was born from above.
I'm sure other pharisees were too, although it went against the grain...there are always exceptions.
That's what I am trying to say as I am agreeing with you.
JohnDB
Member
Okay... well I thought that I would help.
Leviticus 12 details out how the birthing process makes people unclean... especially the Mother. If she has a girl the purification time is twice as long.
But no matter what a sin offering is needed for the blood. A whole yearling lamb.
However, if the young couple is poor two turtle doves or pigeons may be offered.
"The priest shall make atonement for her and she will be clean"
So agreeing with you that something holy cannot come from something unholy.
Don't get me wrong...I love children and babies...when I pass by a pretty woman holding a baby I can't remember the color of anything about the woman but I can describe the baby in great detail from the dimples on it's elbows to the number of teeth and wisps of hair.