CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[GodsGrace]

The doctrine of salvation solely through the grace and mercy of Christ is the Bible.
Any that are based upon works (of any type), are what is heretical.
Maybe your problem is that you just don't understand nor comprehend the Saviour.

Please don't tell me what I understand or don't understand and stick to the topic.

We are saved solely through the grace and mercy of God.
How many times must I repeat this???

NO CHRISTIAN I KNOW BELIEVES WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS.

Sorry for the caps...

 

[electedbyHim]

Just fell on this.
Just want to say that I agree with Jethro Bodine.
Why risk missionaries lives, or preach the gospel, or pray to save someone, if God has already
predestinated everyone to either heaven or hell?
It makes no sense.
Why preach to someone that God knows is going to hell?

If Jesus told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach what He taught, then apparently EVERYONE has the opportunity to hear the gospel and then freely choose whether to accept it or not.
Matthew 28:19

Otherwise Jesus' command makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. We do not know who God has elected for salvation.

I do not know who the Lord will put in my life to hear the gospel or even see me living Christlike.

The command is go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe there are some Hyper Calvinist who will not preach the gospel. I could be wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me rephrase this. I am a disciple of the Lord who wrote the Bible.

Agreed.
Except our Lord did NOT write the bible.
Jesus left nothing in writing.
The entire NT was written by others that either knew Him
or those that knew the 2nd generation.

The NT isn't even really inspired in the same sense that the OT is.
The NT is as close as we can get to history.
The history of a man named Jesus and His followers and what happened after He died
and resurrected.

 

[electedbyHim]

No, Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us that's not true. It shows us that unsaved people can be enlightened, in complete contradiction to Calvinist theology. But, if you want to argue that Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about saved enlightened people then you have to concede that saved people can fall away for good. Which one do you want to go with?

Those verse refer to apostates in my studies. They were never truly regenerated.

 

[electedbyHim]

Agreed.
Except our Lord did NOT write the bible.
Jesus left nothing in writing.
The entire NT was written by others that either knew Him
or those that knew the 2nd generation.

The NT isn't even really inspired in the same sense that the OT is.
The NT is as close as we can get to history.
The history of a man named Jesus and His followers and what happened after He died
and resurrected.

God, the Lord inspired men to write these books through His Spirit.

We are to follow what the Bible teaches, because it comes from God.

I was raised Roman Catholic and they never really took the Bible in a literal sense.

I am not certain if that is your position or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

It makes perfect sense. We do not know who God has elected for salvation.

I do not know who the Lord will put in my life to hear the gospel or even see me living Christlike.

The command is go into all the world and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I believe there are some Hyper Calvinist who will not preach the gospel. I could be wrong.

You're following a command of Jesus, this is good.

But don't you see that it is useless if it's God that is going to choose who to be saved?

Paul said that faith comes BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
The word of God is HEARD, and then the hearer makes up his mind whether or not he wishes to
take what he heard and put it into action.

This makes sense.

Preaching to persons that are already chosen to heaven or damnation makes no sense.

Here is something from Calvin's Institutes:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

source:
John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5


If God has already chosen, what's the use of witnessing or teaching the gospel?

The gospel was written so that we MAY BELIEVE.
1 John 1:1-4
1We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,a whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life.
2This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
4We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.

Note: So that YOU MAY have fellowship with us.
(future, conditional).

 

[electedbyHim]

You're following a command of Jesus, this is good.

But don't you see that it is useless if it's God that is going to choose who to be saved?

Paul said that faith comes BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
The word of God is HEARD, and then the hearer makes up his mind whether or not he wishes to
take what he heard and put it into action.

This makes sense.

Preaching to persons that are already chosen to heaven or damnation makes no sense.

Here is something from Calvin's Institutes:

Preaching to persons that are already chosen to heaven or damnation makes no sense.


source:
John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5


If God has already chosen, what's the use of witnessing or teaching the gospel?

The gospel was written so that we MAY BELIEVE.
1 John 1:1-4
1We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning,a whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life.
2This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
4We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.

Note: So that YOU MAY have fellowship with us.
(future, conditional).

But don't you see that it is useless if it's God that is going to choose who to be saved?

Why would anything God does be useless. We are finite and limited in the knowledge and things of God. I have comfort, joy and contentment in all that the Lord will do. He is sovereign, not man.

The word of God is HEARD, and then the hearer makes up his mind whether or not he wishes to
take what he heard and put it into action.

I do not agree and do not see that being Biblical.

Preaching to persons that are already chosen to heaven or damnation makes no sense.

How do you know that they have been chosen or not?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

This is Biblical, most people call it unfair.

As Paul would say....

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?


Let me ask you this.

Let say you have a friend named Susan, and you know Susan is not a Christian. When you pray for Susan's salvation do pray....

Please dear God, let Susan choose to be saved, let Susan make a decision to be your child.

Is this how an Arminian prays?

 

[GodsGrace]

God, the Lord inspired men to write these books through His Spirit.

We are to follow what the Bible teaches, because it comes from God.

I was raised Roman Catholic and they never really took the Bible in a literal sense.

I am not certain if that is your position or not.

I believe the bible is inspired by God in the OT.

I know for a fact that the NT does not require inspiration because the Apostles LIVED WITH JESUS
for over 3 years and KNEW what He taught. It's history.
It's OK if you can't understand it in this way.
Yes, we are to follow the bible because it comes from God.
I do want to say that WHAT BOOKS/LETTERS/GOSPELS were added to the NT DID require inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
This didn't happen until about 400 years after Jesus died and resurrected.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would anything God does be useless. We are finite and limited in the knowledge and things of God. I have comfort, joy and contentment in all that the Lord will do. He is sovereign, not man.



I do not agree and do not see that being Biblical.



How do you know that they have been chosen or not?


This is Biblical, most people call it unfair.

As Paul would say....

Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?


Let me ask you this.

Let say you have a friend named Susan, and you know Susan is not a Christian. When you pray for Susan's salvation do pray....

Please dear God, let Susan choose to be saved, let Susan make a decision to be your child.

Is this how an Arminian prays?

I'm not an arminian.
The opposite of calvinism is not arminianism.

Yes, I DO pray, please God let Susan choose to be saved.

Again, if God chooses, why would I pray for Susan?
Please think about this before you respond.

Also, you had asked why I think calvinism is heretical.
Sorry, I can't find the post.

I don't THINK calvinism is heretical,
I KNOW it is.
The reason is because heretical means anything that is not accepted by mainline Christianity.
No Denomination believes as calvinists (reformed) do except the reformed.
No other Christian church believes:

That man is born so totally depraved that he cannot choose to be saved.
Man is not chosen arbitrarily by God to either eternal life or damnation.
Christianity believes Jesus died for EVERYONE, not only the persons that choose to be saved.
Christianity believes that God's mercy, love and justice CAN BE resisted. We are NOT forced to accept it.
Christianity believes man can lose his salvation through apostocy.

All of the above are not believed by mainline Christianity because we believe in FREE WILL
and calvinists do not.

John Calvin, BTW, was born in the 1,500's.
1,500 years after Christ was buried and resurrected.
Does this tell you anything?

 

[electedbyHim]

I believe the bible is inspired by God in the OT.

I know for a fact that the NT does not require inspiration because the Apostles LIVED WITH JESUS
for over 3 years and KNEW what He taught. It's history.
It's OK if you can't understand it in this way.
Yes, we are to follow the bible because it comes from God.
I do want to say that WHAT BOOKS/LETTERS/GOSPELS were added to the NT DID require inspiration from the Holy Spirit.
This didn't happen until about 400 years after Jesus died and resurrected.

I just do not believe the Bible is only a historical book.

What do you do with ….

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be equipped, having been thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[rogerg]

If no one outside of the bible has any spiritual authority, why did Calvin mention Augustine from the 5th century AD more than 4,000 times in his writings?

Why would Calvin base his teachings on some idea of predestination that Augustine had, having come out of a heretical sect called Manechaenism?

Why didn't Calvin, instead, believe those that were taught by the Apostles themselves?

I do agree with John 5:30 BTW.
By ourselves without the aid of the Holy Spirit we can do nothing.
Every Christian believes this.

I don't know why - I've never followed Calvin (that I know of) nor read his writings.
The Bible is my one and only spiritual authority - nothing else is.

 

[GodsGrace]

I just do not believe the Bible is only a historical book.

What do you do with ….

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be equipped, having been thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My gosh E,
I didn't say the bible is ONLY a historical book.

I said the NT is historical...it tells of actual history.
This does NOT mean it is not profitable for teaching, training in righteousness, etc.
It teaches us about good works.
It teaches us how to witness to persons so they have an opportunity to be saved by God's love and mercy.

 

[jerry63935]

Most people who believe that they chose to be saved

thats Not Free will free will is accepting the call of being drawn by the spirit

Proverbs 1:23-25

King James Version

​

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:


1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


God calls speaks to the heart in time of being saved, we can either accept or reject . trust me each time we refuse He turns the heat up. called conviction .


free will; has never been the point where we pick or time or place to be saved it takes the anointing that will destroy the yoke.

 

[jerry63935]

I don't know why - I've never followed Calvin (that I know of) nor read his writings.
The Bible is my one and only spiritual authority - nothing else is.

look i can respect your belief ..but your %199 Calvinist that doesn't mean you followed Calvin

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know why - I've never followed Calvin (that I know of) nor read his writings.
The Bible is my one and only spiritual authority - nothing else is.

Roger, please be intellectually honest here.
2nd Timothy decided to no longer speak to me.
You asked him to please continue doing so for those that are reading along.
You know very well that you're spreading a teaching here.
This teaching is reformed in theology and is also known as Calvinism.

Now, maybe you don't know Calvin, but maybe, since you preach what he taught,
you should spend some time trying to get to know him.

He wrote a 4 volume set called The Institutes of the Christian Religion.
Read it.
I think, if you don't know his writings, you will come away pretty dismayed at the God you
are describing to others.

A God no one believes in except the reformed.
Unloving, Unmerciful and Unjust.

God is Loving, Merciful and Just.
This is the God of the bible.

He bestowed us with free will to love Him or not love Him.
If love is not free, it is worthless.
God wants our love ONLY if it is free.
Not if He has to choose for us to love Him or not.

 

[electedbyHim]

I'm not an arminian.
The opposite of calvinism is not arminianism.

Yes, I DO pray, please God let Susan choose to be saved.

Again, if God chooses, why would I pray for Susan?
Please think about this before you respond.

Also, you had asked why I think calvinism is heretical.
Sorry, I can't find the post.

I don't THINK calvinism is heretical,
I KNOW it is.
The reason is because heretical means anything that is not accepted by mainline Christianity.
No Denomination believes as calvinists (reformed) do except the reformed.
No other Christian church believes:

That man is born so totally depraved that he cannot choose to be saved.
Man is not chosen arbitrarily by God to either eternal life or damnation.
Christianity believes Jesus died for EVERYONE, not only the persons that choose to be saved.
Christianity believes that God's mercy, love and justice CAN BE resisted. We are NOT forced to accept it.
Christianity believes man can lose his salvation through apostocy.

All of the above are not believed by mainline Christianity because we believe in FREE WILL
and calvinists do not.

John Calvin, BTW, was born in the 1,500's.
1,500 years after Christ was buried and resurrected.
Does this tell you anything?

The opposite of Calvinism is Arminianism, The debate has gone on for centuries.

Yes, I DO pray, please God let Susan choose to be saved.

Again, if God chooses, why would I pray for Susan?
Please think about this before you respond.

I see that as a secular prayer. I gave you the answer to the second par twice.

That man is born so totally depraved that he cannot choose to be saved.

This is Biblical, human pride says it is not.

Man is not chosen arbitrarily by God to either eternal life or damnation.

Man is chosen by God for salvation or not, this is Biblical.

Christianity believes Jesus died for EVERYONE, not only the persons that choose to be saved.

This is not Biblical. If Christ dies for everyone, then every human ever lived will be in heaven, because His death covered their sins.

Christianity believes that God's mercy, love and justice CAN BE resisted. We are NOT forced to accept it.

Well sure, we see this daily with those who bash the Lord, they were never chosen.

Christianity believes man can lose his salvation through apostocy.

They were never truly regenerated.

 

[electedbyHim]

thats Not Free will free will is accepting the call of being drawn by the spirit

Proverbs 1:23-25​

​

King James Version​

​

​

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:


1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:


God calls speaks to the heart in time of being saved, we can either accept or reject . trust me each time we refuse He turns the heat up. called conviction .


free will; has never been the point where we pick or time or place to be saved it takes the anointing that will destroy the yoke.

The only free will the unregenerate has is to choose sin.

 

[jasonc]

I guess praying God breaking a sinners heart unto salvation is most Calvinist .I was doing that before I went to a reformed church.


I certainly didn't want Jesus .Jesus let me sin and dig a hole and destroy my life and then in desperation because of the mess he allowed me to make of myself listened because I was being led to repentance as I heard the gospel s few times before I did that

 

[GodsGrace]

The opposite of Calvinism is Arminianism, The debate has gone on for centuries.



I see that as a secular prayer. I gave you the answer to the second par twice.


This is Biblical, human pride says it is not.



Man is chosen by God for salvation or not, this is Biblical.


This is not Biblical. If Christ dies for everyone, then every human ever lived will be in heaven, because His death covered their sins.


Well sure, we see this daily with those who bash the Lord, they were never chosen.


They were never truly regenerated.

I have to sign off.
And it's a big job...
but would I love to see scripture for the above beliefs.

For instance, where does the NT state that we are born so totally depraved that we are UNABLE to choose to be saved?

To keep to the topic of this thread...
Where does the NT state that we will be eternally saved, forever, no matter what?

 

[jerry63935]

The only free will the unregenerate has is to choose sin.

you keep believing that / see i am living proof