CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[rogerg]

But Paul makes it clear there is no boast of self righteousness in the 'work' of believing.

Romans 3:26-27
26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

So it's impossible to say believing is a work of the works gospel that can not save. Paul says the 'work' of believing, if you want to call it that, DOES justify. It's clear as day in scripture. Only someone who is dead set on believing that Calvinism is true will turn their eyes away from these plain words.

It is Christ's faith in v27. Man is justified by Christ's faith not their own faith. Their faith comes as God's gift from His faith

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

They then choose whether to believe those things and be saved, or not believe them and be lost.

They remain blind UNTIL becoming saved. When they become saved, from/by that, they see.
You believe that those who have true faith in Christ are saved, and those who don't aren't, don't you? Well, in the below verse we can see that those who are blind "BELIEVE NOT", therefore, if they are given spiritual sight (from salvation), then they must have been given belief too and were saved. That is; blind mind = do not believe and unsaved; unblinded mind = believe and saved.


[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[jasonc]

My church doesn't .we sprinkle .
The idea of immersion is not quite what the early church did . They used the ocean,a lake ,river and then the body of water,if not sprinkling would work .

It makes sense given droughts

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is Christ's faith in v27. Man is justified by Christ's faith not their own faith. Their faith comes as God's gift from His faith

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, we all know faith is a gift from God. We are justified on the basis of what we do with the faith God gives us. Are we going to believe what God has shown us to be true, or are we going to reject it? A man is justified on the basis of his believing, not on the basis of simply being shown that what he can't see really is true.

Romans 4:3
3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his believing) was credited to him as righteousness.”

 

[rogerg]

And don't even bother trying to make falling away the thing that is impossible in the passage. Any 6th grade English student can see that, grammatically, the thing that is impossible is to be brought back to repentance. This one passage alone is why I could never honestly believe Calvinism is true.

Repentance is a gift from God. If given, it cannot be lost, so it is impossible that the renewal of it could have been a consideration by Paul as a possibility - unless, that is, you believe in a works gospel, which it is clear that you do.
Your problem is that you don't know how to read the Bible. You take individual verses and try to make them
stand on their own as doctrine. Instead, in order to do that correctly, you need to compare to all other like verses in order to form a correct interpretation. Had you, you would have seen that repentance is from God and cannot be lost in the first place.
Your statement is an obvious illustration of the below admonition, since, and as you said, "any 6th grade English student can see that", but the Bible is NOT understood in the words which man's wisdom teaches but only by that which the Holy Ghost teaches, by which is a major flaw in your thinking made apparent. Should you depend upon the rules of man's grammar for biblical understanding, you never will. Instead, you need to follow the rules God set forth, not man.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[rogerg]

es, we all know faith is a gift from God. We are justified on the basis of what we do with the faith God gives us

Oh my! You're not grasping this at all are you? Read the verse I posted and analyze it closely. After
you do, maybe we can discuss later.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They remain blind UNTIL becoming saved.

No, Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us that's not true. It shows us that unsaved people can be enlightened, in complete contradiction to Calvinist theology. But, if you want to argue that Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about saved enlightened people then you have to concede that saved people can fall away for good. Which one do you want to go with?

 

[rogerg]

No, Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us that's not true. It shows us that unsaved people can be enlightened, in complete contradiction to Calvinist theology. But, if you want to argue that Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about saved enlightened people then you have to concede that saved people can fall away for good. Which one do you want to go with?

NOT!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh my! You're not grasping this at all are you? Read the verse I posted and analyze it closely. After
you do, maybe we can discuss later.

I'm not arguing against faith being a supernatural gift that God gives the unbeliever so he can see that the spiritual realities he can't see and understand on his own really are true. What the unbeliever does with that gift of being able to see into the realities of the Spirit is what determines if he's going to be justified or not. Just knowing something is true through a revelation from God doesn't justify. Believing what God shows you by revelation is what justifies. Even the demons know the gospel is true! You have to believe in the gospel, trusting in it and receiving the word into yourself in order for you to be justified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

NOT!

You have a choice here, friend. Which one are you going to go with? Is Hebrews 6:4-6 talking about unsaved enlightened people who aren't allowed to come back to repentance, or is talking about saved enlightened people who aren't allowed to come back to repentance? Your Calvinistic theology is caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

[rogerg]

You have a choice here, friend. Which one are you going to go with? Is Hebrews 6:4-6 talking about unsaved enlightened people who aren't allowed to come back to repentance, or is talking about saved enlightened people who aren't allowed to come back to repentance?

I'm done

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a disciple of the Bible. I follow the teachings of the Bible, Gospels, epistles, etc.

You cannot be a disciple of the bible or of any book.
A disciple follows a person:

disciple​

(dɪsaɪpəl )
Word forms: plural disciples
COUNTABLE NOUN [oft with poss]
If you are someone's disciple, you are influenced by their teachings and try to follow their example.
...a disciple of Freud.
...one of the disciples of Christ.

source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/disciple

 

[GodsGrace]

We are each commanded to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And…

Warned to discern the spirits and told that we shall know a tree by the fruit it bears. And…

To examine ourselves to see that we are in Christ and not deceiving ourselves.

I’m left with a distinct impression of divine foreknowledge and also personal responsibility. Tension between the two…

Divine foreknowledge is accepted by all Christian denominations.
This is not the same as determinism, or predestination.
Knowing something does not cause something.

 

[electedbyHim]

(Emphasis in quote by me)

No, it has NOTHING to do with him, I mean if you're going to stick to a Calvinistic world view. I often see this...Calvinists forgetting that they are Calvinist. I remember watching a desperate plea by the Reformist YouTuber 'Wretched' for the lives of those who need to hear the gospel and the concern about them going to hell. I guess he forgot he's Calvinist.

Todd Friel of Wretched.

I do not know a Calvinist who does not pray for the salvation of people or do not give the gospel. They are very concerned with people going to hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible is an integrated whole written by God alone and must be understood as such. The Father moved Jesus as He moved the other writers to write what they wrote and to speak what they spoke in it. Nothing outside of the
Bible is to be considered as having any spiritual authority.

[Jhn 5:30 NIV]
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

If no one outside of the bible has any spiritual authority, why did Calvin mention Augustine from the 5th century AD more than 4,000 times in his writings?

Why would Calvin base his teachings on some idea of predestination that Augustine had, having come out of a heretical sect called Manechaenism?

Why didn't Calvin, instead, believe those that were taught by the Apostles themselves?

I do agree with John 5:30 BTW.
By ourselves without the aid of the Holy Spirit we can do nothing.
Every Christian believes this.

 

[electedbyHim]

You're calvinist in theology and you know it.
Calvinism is not biblical and can be considered heretical.

Look up what heretical means before you get bent out of shape.

What part is heretical?

 

[GodsGrace]

Todd Friel of Wretched.

I do not know a Calvinist who does not pray for the salvation of people or do not give the gospel. They are very concerned with people going to hell.

Just fell on this.
Just want to say that I agree with Jethro Bodine.
Why risk missionaries lives, or preach the gospel, or pray to save someone, if God has already
predestinated everyone to either heaven or hell?
It makes no sense.
Why preach to someone that God knows is going to hell?

If Jesus told the Apostles to go into all the world and teach what He taught, then apparently EVERYONE has the opportunity to hear the gospel and then freely choose whether to accept it or not.
Matthew 28:19

Otherwise Jesus' command makes no sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

Possibly I'm misunderstanding, but I believe that I've understood. I'm open to correction if I haven't

Hi Roger,
We're not discussing here whether or not all of the NT is inspired.
Of course it is or the letters/gospels wouldn't be part of the NT.

We're also not speaking of the JESUS ONLY MOVEMENT.

What we're saying, Cooper and I, is that we are disciples of JESUS.
Not of Paul, or James, or Peter etc.

We are to follow the teachings of Christ, who died for us.
But all of the bible is inspired and is to be read and used for learing.

IOW, if someone asked you who you are a disciple of...
what would you answer?

The answer should be JESUS.

 

[electedbyHim]

The doctrine of salvation solely through the grace and mercy of Christ is the Bible.
Any that are based upon works (of any type), are what is heretical.
Maybe your problem is that you just don't understand nor comprehend the Saviour.

Most people who believe that they chose to be saved is based solely in pride. I just do not understand this.
If anyone actually did a study on Theology Proper, specifically the sovereignty and providence of God, from the Bible they would see that they had no part in salvation. This doctrine is not only humbling but comforting.

Monergism vs. Synergism

 

[electedbyHim]

You cannot be a disciple of the bible or of any book.
A disciple follows a person:

disciple​

(dɪsaɪpəl )
Word forms: plural disciples
COUNTABLE NOUN [oft with poss]
If you are someone's disciple, you are influenced by their teachings and try to follow their example.
...a disciple of Freud.
...one of the disciples of Christ.

source: https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/disciple

Let me rephrase this. I am a disciple of the Lord who wrote the Bible.