CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[jasonc]

surgeon was effective called of God or else his writings would no longer exist

Never said he was .just that what he teaches and the doctrines he taught .
Ie he likely didn't hold to baptism like my church does.

We don't immerse .

 

[Cooper]

Salvation

Of course. That is why we need a Saviour. Thank you, Lord Jesus.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am only putting
out what I know to be the doctrine of salvation of the Bible as is my responsibility. What you do or don't do with it is entirely up to you (and God) -and will be more than happy to leave it at that

(Emphasis in quote by me)

No, it has NOTHING to do with him, I mean if you're going to stick to a Calvinistic world view. I often see this...Calvinists forgetting that they are Calvinist. I remember watching a desperate plea by the Reformist YouTuber 'Wretched' for the lives of those who need to hear the gospel and the concern about them going to hell. I guess he forgot he's Calvinist.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not a Calvinist, a biblist, or better yet, a gospelist. All most all of my posts I back-up with scripture.
But, of course, have it your way.

You're calvinist in theology and you know it.
Calvinism is not biblical and can be considered heretical.

Look up what heretical means before you get bent out of shape.

 

[GodsGrace]

(Emphasis in quote by me)

No, it has NOTHING to do with him, I mean if you're going to stick to a Calvinistic world view. I often see this...Calvinists forgetting that they are Calvinist. I remember watching a desperate plea by the Reformist YouTuber 'Wretched' for the lives of those who need to hear the gospel and the concern about them going to hell. I guess he forgot he's Calvinist.

Funny stuff.

 

[jerry63935]

Never said he was .just that what he teaches and the doctrines he taught .
Ie he likely didn't hold to baptism like my church does.

We don't immerse . you dony or he doesnt ?

 

[rogerg]

Calvinism is not biblical and can be considered heretical.

The doctrine of salvation solely through the grace and mercy of Christ is the Bible.
Any that are based upon works (of any type), are what is heretical.
Maybe your problem is that you just don't understand nor comprehend the Saviour.

 

[rogerg]

No, it has NOTHING to do with him, I mean if you're going to stick to a Calvinistic world view

See post #147

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See post #147

When you believe that people are selected by God ahead of time as to whether they will be created a believer or not with no consideration whatsoever of what the person themselves might want you have no choice but to not care about people and what they do with the gospel message. Your care, your thought, your concern means nothing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The doctrine of salvation solely through the grace and mercy of Christ is the Bible.

We're all aware of this. But this doesn't mean people do not have the choice to respond to the gospel message or not. Salvation is still by the grace and mercy of God even if the person themselves must choose to receive it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Any that are based upon works (of any type), are what is heretical.

Justification is based solely on faith in God's promise of a Son. Just because someone does not subscribe to Calvin's understanding of predestination and election that doesn't mean they believe that salvation is by works.

 

[rogerg]

When you believe that people are selected ahead of time as to whether they will be created a believer or not with no consideration whatsoever of what the person themselves might want you have no choice but to not care about people and what they do with the gospel message.

If it isn't that way, then works would be required from those saved, and all of the works would be required, which would make them their own saviour, not Christ. You superimpose your thoughts of how you feel it should, and of how you would like it to work, over how the Bible informs that salvation does work. Anything of salvation not received as a gift is a work

 

[rogerg]

We're all aware of this. But this doesn't mean people do not have the choice to respond to the gospel message or not.

Then it isn't by mercy and grace, but of ourselves. It can't be both ways at the same time

 

[rogerg]

ustification is based solely on faith in God's promise of a Son. Just because someone does not subscribe to Calvin's understanding of predestination and election that doesn't mean they believe that salvation is by works.

Doesn't matter what they "believe". Anything not of a gift is a work, and no one is saved by their works

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If it isn't that way, then works would be required from those saved, and all of the works would be required, which would make them their own saviour, not Christ.

The necessity to trust in the gospel in order to be justified is not the works gospel.

You superimpose your thoughts of how you feel it should, and of how you would like it to work, over how the Bible informs that salvation does work. Anything of salvation not received as a gift is a work

I'm not aware of a single verse or passage of scripture that even remotely suggests you choosing to trust in Christ is somehow you trying to save yourself in a self righteous works gospel. But I am aware of a lot of scripture that says that's not a works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then it isn't by mercy and grace, but of ourselves. It can't be both ways at the same time

The ability to believe and trust in Christ is a gift from God. You either take it or leave it. That's not a works gospel. If it is, show me that in the Bible.

 

[rogerg]

'm not aware of a single verse or passage of scripture that even remotely suggests you choosing to trust in Christ is somehow you trying to save yourself in a self righteous works gospel. But I am aware of a lot of scripture that says that's not a works gospel.

Having a true belief is both a work and is God's work alone, not ours:

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[1Pe 1:5 KJV]
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[rogerg]

The ability to believe and trust in Christ is a gift from God. You either take it or leave it. That's not a works gospel. If it is, show me that in the Bible.

Of themselves no one can believe because the unsaved are spiritually blind. How could it be any clearer
and direct than this:

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Having a true belief is both a work and is God's work alone, not ours:

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[1Pe 1:5 KJV]
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

But Paul makes it clear there is no boast of self righteousness in the 'work' of believing:

Romans 3:26-27
26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

So it's impossible to say believing is a self righteous work of the works gospel that can not justify. Paul says the 'work' of believing, if you want to call it that, DOES justify. It's clear as day in scripture. Only someone who is dead set on believing that Calvinism is true will turn their eyes away from these plain words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of themselves no one can believe because the unsaved are spiritually blind. How could it be any clearer
and direct than this:

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, we all know unbelievers in their natural selves are incapable of believing spiritual things they can not see. That's why God enlightens the unbeliever so they CAN see hidden spiritual things, giving them the ability to know those things are true. They then can choose whether to believe those things and be saved, or not believe them and be lost.

The very unenlightened, but Christ rejecting people Calvinism is sure don't, and can't exist are clearly talked about here in Hebrews 6:4-6.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Now, go ahead and argue that these are saved enlightened people. Well, then that means saved people can fall away! Calvinism loses on both counts on this one passage alone. If it's talking about unsaved people it shows us that Calvinism is wrong in saying unsaved people can not be enlightened and must first be saved to be enlightened. If it's talking about saved people then it shows us that Calvinism is wrong in saying that saved people can't fall away. It loses on both counts. So, take your pick. Which one do you want to go with?

And don't even bother trying to make falling away the thing that is impossible in the passage. Any 6th grade English student can see that, grammatically, the thing that is impossible is to be brought back to repentance. This one passage alone is why I could never honestly believe Calvinism is true.