CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[gordon777]

Yes, the topic is clear, that as predicted by Christ, the many false prophets rise to deceive many.

Being reformed by those many false prophets, is how iniquity abounded, how love waxed cold, how man became lovers of their own selves.

 

[electedbyHim]

As I said ebh, it is impossible to fall away into a backslidden condition unless you were first a believer.
.

I do not agree.

We both have our bias.

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes, the topic is clear, that as predicted by Christ, the many false prophets rise to deceive many.

Being reformed by those many false prophets, is how iniquity abounded, how love waxed cold, how man became lovers of their own selves.

Ha, so all the reformers were false teachers.

How about people like Spurgeon and Whitfield and so on.

All false teachers?

That is a huge claim.

 

[Cooper]

I do not agree.

We both have our bias.

Then learn from Solomon.

And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
(1Ki 11:9-10 KJV)
.

 

[electedbyHim]

Then learn from Solomon.

And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.
(1Ki 11:9-10 KJV)
.

Learn what?

Has my heart turned from God because I do not believe as you and other members do?

I could easily say, as others do, that what you believe is heretical and false teaching.

But why go there. It is not that important of an issue to say such things.

I do not believe a true child of God can renounce their salvation, leave the faith or whatever one wants to label it.

It is taught nowhere in Scripture and the verses in Hebrews are about apostacy. But hey what do the Greek and Hebrew Biblical scholars know.

Those darn reformers.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[jerry63935]

find it extremely annoying that I have to defend the appropriateness the sources of my beliefs before you guys to get your approval. Either accept what I post or reject them on face value.

how do you think we feel? you have denied everything we post on free will. i find many things this day and age annoying. i myself i dont seek the approval of man. see the only thing i have to be right on, is being in the right standings with GOD

 

[jerry63935]

Anyway, I will say this: that I only read from and quote the Bible -- it is my sole spiritual authority

What do you think others use readers digest ? what do you expect breakfast in bed? serious its forum no 2 people believe the same you either stand your ground or be like the Dog who wants to run with the other big dogs and cant. so they stay on the porch . at least were not stoned or horse whipped for our belief

 

[Cooper]

Learn what?

Has my heart turned from God because I do not believe as you and other members do?

I could easily say, as others do, that what you believe is heretical and false teaching.

But why go there. It is not that important of an issue to say such things.

I do not believe a true child of God can renounce their salvation, leave the faith or whatever one wants to label it.

It is taught nowhere in Scripture and the verses in Hebrews are about apostacy. But hey what do the Greek and Hebrew Biblical scholars know.

Those darn reformers.

Grace and peace to you.

If a man of God like Solomon can backslide, so can everyone.
.

 

[electedbyHim]

If a man of God like Solomon can backslide, so can everyone.
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Backsliding and apostacy are different. Backsliding is falling into sin, you did not lose your salvation when you backslide.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am really not certain what Calvin taught.

I'm confident that John Piper and John McArthur are probably the foremost leaders and educators of the Calvinist movement. So, I suppose, if there is a definitive source of Calvinism's doctrines, it would be from one of these two. Here is John Piper's explanation of enduring to the end as the sign that you are of the elect. It's the 'P' in Calvinism's 'TULIP' acronym:

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

To know God in his sovereignty is to become like an oak tree in the wind of adversity and confusion.

www.desiringgod.org

See, the problem with this is you can never know for sure if you're of the elect because, ultimately, the truly elected person, picked by God to be a believer whether that's what they want or not, according to Calvinism, is the person who makes it all the way to the end without renouncing Christ in outright unbelief. Why is that a problem? Because you have to arrive to the end to know if you've endured to the very end!

No early victories for the Calvinist before all the votes are counted! For the Calvinist, there's always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that they were never 'really' saved and picked by God for salvation. What they thought was genuine faith today may be shown tomorrow to have not been genuine at all! And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance????

In non-Calvinistic theology, you are saved, right now, today as long as you are in a state of present tense believing. And you know that you are in that state of believing by the evidence of your growing, changing life toward the image of Christ, the predetermined destiny of all who have placed their faith in Christ and have been elected on the basis of that faith. Present tense believing, as evidenced by how you live, is how the Christian finds the assurance that he really is saved, and how he rests securely and safely in the sureness and everlasting efficacy of Christ's sacrifice and ministry.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If a man of God like Solomon can backslide, so can everyone.
.

Which has been a good lesson for me lately. I'm married to an unsaved wife and there have been temptations to do things to please her that I should not do. God reminds me through Solomon being led away by his foreign wives who served foreign gods to not compromise in this area.

 

[Cooper]

Backsliding and apostacy are different. Backsliding is falling into sin, you did not lose your salvation when you backslide.

That is what Solomon did. He committed apostasy.

1 Kings 11 Solomon’s Apostasy​

11 But King Solomon loved many foreign women in addition to the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites, 2 from the nations which the Lord warned the children of Israel about, saying, “You shall not go in to them, nor shall they come in to you, for they will surely turn your heart away toward their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives who were princesses and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods, and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God as the heart of David his father had been. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Molek, the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not fully follow the Lord as his father David had done.
.

 

[electedbyHim]

I'm confident that John Piper and John McArthur are probably the foremost leaders and educators of the Calvinist movement. So, I suppose, if there is a definitive source of Calvinism's doctrines, it would be from one of these two. Here is John Piper's explanation of enduring to the end as the sign that you are of the elect. It's the 'P' in Calvinism's 'TULIP' acronym:

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

To know God in his sovereignty is to become like an oak tree in the wind of adversity and confusion.

www.desiringgod.org

See, the problem with this is you can never know for sure if you're of the elect because, ultimately, the truly elected person, picked by God to be a believer whether that's what they want or not, according to Calvinism, is the person who makes it all the way to the end without renouncing Christ in outright unbelief. Why is that a problem? Because you have to arrive to the end to know if you've endured to the very end!

No early victories for the Calvinist before all the votes are counted! For the Calvinist, there's always tomorrow's potential failure of faith to show that they were never 'really' saved and picked by God for salvation. What they thought was genuine faith today may be shown tomorrow to have not been genuine at all! And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance????

In non-Calvinistic theology, you are saved, right now, today as long as you are in a state of present tense believing. And you know that you are in that state of believing by the evidence of your growing, changing life toward the image of Christ, the predetermined destiny of all who have placed their faith in Christ and have been elected on the basis of their faith. Present tense believing, as evidenced by how you live, is how the Christian finds the assurance that he really is saved, and how he rests securely and safely in the sureness and everlasting efficacy of Christ's sacrifice and ministry.

I am not a fan ofJohn Piper, He does have some good teaching.

I know John Macarthur does not teach what you have said. And I surely do not think that way.

 

[Cooper]

Which has been a good lesson for me lately. I'm married to an unsaved wife and there have been temptations to do things to please her that I should not do. God reminds me through Solomon being led away by his foreign wives who served foreign gods to not compromise in this area.

It's tough. May the Lord strengthen and keep you.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Backsliding and apostacy are different. Backsliding is falling into sin, you did not lose your salvation when you backslide.

I agree with this in principle. Maybe not the terms themselves, but the difference between stumbling and falling away. The only way a believer can lose their salvation is if they stop believing altogether. In which case they no longer have the intercessory ministry of Christ, constantly interceding on behalf of the children of God in heaven, to cover the sins they commit because they don't believe and trust in that sacrifice anymore.

Decide for yourself, people, if that's even possible to do (stop believing). You're free to do with that as you want. But one things for sure, the person who stops believing in Christ does not have the benefit of a sacrifice that he does not believe in. There's no way around that. Believing is how you secure the effect of Christ's ministry, and if you ain't got that believing, you ain't got Christ's ministry. It's just that simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not a fan ofJohn Piper, He does have some good teaching.

I know John Macarthur does not teach what you have said. And I surely do not think that way.

I was only sharing what he said as a somewhat definitive source of official Calvinistic doctrine. Of course, you are free to deviate from official Calvinistic doctrine, as long as you point out to others that you are doing that. I'm seeing this more and more. People are splintering off from the original Calvinistic doctrines to the degree that there really is no one original Calvinistic theology anymore. It's being abandoned.

So, I guess you have to distinguish yourself from being Calvinistic and are only agreeing with some of it's teachings just as I have to distinguish myself from Arminianism. That's why I use the term 'non-Calvinistic' and not 'Arminian' when referring to beliefs different from and opposed to Calvinism.

 

[electedbyHim]

That is what Solomon did. He committed apostasy.​

​

1 Kings 11 Solomon’s Apostasy​

11 But King Solomon loved many foreign women in addition to the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites, 2 from the nations which the Lord warned the children of Israel about, saying, “You shall not go in to them, nor shall they come in to you, for they will surely turn your heart away toward their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives who were princesses and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods, and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God as the heart of David his father had been. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Molek, the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not fully follow the Lord as his father David had done.
.

Does that mean he is not in heaven with the Lord?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does that mean he is not in heaven with the Lord?

We don't know. That's why Christians start threads about whether or not Solomon was saved, or not, lol.

Did he renounce the promise altogether, or just stumble into sin while retaining the promise? We do not know.

 

[Cooper]

Does that mean he is not in heaven with the Lord?

Yes. Ten tribes were cut off the vine and the Gentiles grafted in.
.

 

[electedbyHim]

I was only sharing what he said as a somewhat definitive source of official Calvinistic doctrine. Of course, you are free to deviate from official Calvinistic doctrine, as long as you point out to others that you are doing that. I'm seeing this more and more. People are splintering off from the original Calvinistic doctrines to the degree that there really is no one original Calvinistic theology anymore. It's being abandoned.

So, I guess you have to distinguish yourself from being Calvinistic and are only agreeing with some of it's teachings just as I have to distinguish myself from Arminianism. That's why I use the term 'non-Calvinistic' and not 'Arminian' when referring to beliefs different and opposed to Calvinism.

In all honesty, I do not know what a Calvinistic doctrine is. If you say it is TULIP, then yes I believe and see the Bible teaches these doctrines. I would not say this doctrine was taugh just by Calvin, but the Lord and the apostles taught this before Calvin.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY (= "T" of TULIP)

The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)

The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).

LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption (= "L" of TULIP)

This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE (= "I" of TULIP)

This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security (= "P" of TULIP)

This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.