CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Jethro Bodine]

Before becoming saved, everyone has a "carnal mind". Therefore, a person must first be
saved to not have one and to be able to comprehend evidence

Okay. That means you consider the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 saved people, not unsaved people, for they are enlightened. Which means Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about saved people who fall away and aren't allowed to come back to repentance because it puts Christ to open shame.

 

[gordon777]

Do you not think it is simple and wise if you mention Hebrews 6, to see it compares exactly with Hebrews 11?

Those who fall away, have no full assurance of hope, unto the end( remember those who endure to the end are saved only. Matthew 10:22)

Then these are exhortations how all of us are to draw near sincerely to Christ, in full assurance of faith, which is our hearts sprinkled from all evil consciences..




Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[GodsGrace]

The opposite of Calvinism is Arminianism, The debate has gone on for centuries.

OK. I really don't care to discuss this.
Arminius started out as a calvinist.
Then he changed his mind about some things.
I'm not an arminian because he didn't live till the 1,500's.
Christianity began in the first century.
So I like to call myself a Christian.
I don't follow a man, as calvinists do...
I follow Jesus and the church He began with His new ideas.

I see that as a secular prayer. I gave you the answer to the second par twice.

I also posted a paragraph from a book Calvin wrote.
You follow Calvin.
So you believe in predestination.
If God has already predestines everyone from the beginning of the world,
how would your prayer about Susan make any difference?
Susan is getting saved or not, whether you pray for her or not.
Do you understand really well what predestination is?
Do you accept it or not?
If you accept it, there's no use in praying for Susan.

And, yes, Jesus would never have instructed the Apostles to go into all the world and preach and teach
if Jesus knew this teaching would count for nothing.
Yes, it would count for nothing because God already has everything predestined.

So, I would safely assume, that if Jesus gave the command to go and preach,
it's because a person retains the free will choice of accepting salvation or turning it down.

This is Biblical, human pride says it is not.

Could you please find some verses that state that man is so totally depraved that he is UNABLE to seek God?
(I may have already asked you this).

Man is chosen by God for salvation or not, this is Biblical.

Prove it please.

This is not Biblical. If Christ dies for everyone, then every human ever lived will be in heaven, because His death covered their sins.

See the following verses:

1 Timothy 4:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
1 John 2:2
John 3:16-18
Ephesians 2:8-9

Well sure, we see this daily with those who bash the Lord, they were never chosen.

It's not that they were never chosen,
they never wished to be saved.
John 3:16

They were never truly regenerated.

The NT says otherwise.
Please explain
2 Peter 2:20-22
. 20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We cannot 'DO' believing

'Have faith' is something you do. It's called 'believing'.

To 'have faith' is to receive and retain the gospel message. That's something you do. And that's the ONLY thing that can justify you. Receiving God's forgiveness is the ONLY way you can be made righteous.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are many.....

No One Is Righteous
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME WORTHLESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom 3:13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN TOMB, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
Rom 3:14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
Rom 3:15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
Rom 3:18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

Paul is quoting the OT which states in the above that all are born sinners.
He is telling the Jews that the law does not save, because this is what they were depending on. Romans 2:17
They thought they were special because they were Jews, they were being hypocritical. Romans 2:21

If you read your verses above in Romans very carefully, you'll find that they state that we are born sinful,
that all of the above can be true of man,
but you do not read that we are unable to turn from this condition.

Hear what Jesus told Jerusalem:
Matthew 23:37
37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.


Jesus states that the people in Jerusalem WOULD NOT LET HIM protest them.
Jesus is stating that they had free will ...they did NOT choose to believe Jesus.

One of many.....

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can separate us from God.
But we can walk away from Him because we retain the free will to do so even after salvation.

Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish—ever; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Those who follow Jesus till the end will have eternal life.

Hebrews 10:23
23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us,

Hebrews 3:14
14For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

1 Corinthians 15:2
...the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.


Paul gives many exhortations to hold on to the faith.
There would be no need to do this IF a person could not lose that faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I find it extremely annoying that I have to defend the appropriateness the sources of my beliefs before you guys to get your approval. Either accept what I post or reject them on face value. I never question your right to form
your own conclusions using whatever sources you may choose. I may not agree, but nevertheless, it is your right to do so.
Anyway, I will say this: that I only read from and quote the Bible -- it is my sole spiritual authority. Have you ever observed me reference anything besides the Bible? What do you think that means? It is possible for different people to read the Bible and come to similar conclusions based upon scripture. Given that the Bible was written by God and that it can only contain only one overriding, fundamental principle, I would find it amazing should that not happen.

This is also for post no. 217 which you wrote right after the above.
I'll tell you this...the good news is that there is salvation for everyone who wishes to take advantage of it and follow God and make us of the sacrifice of Jesus so that they could enjoy God in both this life and the one to come.

The good news IS NOT that God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be saved and who woldn't.
I could understand that some question might come up when getting to Romans 9, but the rest of the NT is so overwhelmingly clear that any person normally reading the NT would just continue on with the good news.

I don't know why you're upset about having to defend the appropriateness of your sources.
I've never brought that up. I do post Calvin at times because you apparently agree with him.
Again, maybe you should find out why.
Maybe you should KNOW whether or not you're reformed since everyone here speaks to you as if you were one.

As far as I know, I answer to your posts.
I've explained verses you've posted as Christianity understands them,
I've posted verses for you to explain.

Maybe the reformed become tired of posting positions that need to be defended continually.
I don't tire. I have the good news and am able and happy to post whatever is necessary to spread the good news to humanity - in any way I can (not only here).

 

[GodsGrace]

Hebrews 11:1 Faith springs out of hope for which there is no evidence.

We cannot 'DO' believing, but our actions are the outward evidence of our inner faith.
.

Cooper:
Sorry, the site opened up to this.

FAITH is a noun.
BELIEF is a noun.
BELIEVE is a verb.

A verb is an action word.
If you believe, you are doing something, you are taking an action.

And yes, our actions are indeed the exterior evidence of an inner faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

The remainder of your post, wondering, is unworthy of a reply

My explanation of God is unworthy of a reply?

You think believing in a God that predestined everyone to heaven or hell
is worthy to be worshipped?

You think THAT God is the same as the one I explained to you?

Interesting.

 

[Cooper]

'Have faith' is something you do. It's called 'believing'.

To 'have faith' is to receive and retain the gospel message. That's something you do. And that's the ONLY thing that can justify you. Receiving God's forgiveness is the ONLY way you can be made righteous.

Having faith or believing in God, both are the same, are the springboard for our actions.

We do not 'do' faith, but we 'do' good works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Jas 2:14 KJV)

Works are the evidence of our faith.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hope I am a disciple of Christ, but it is the Christ of the Bible alone and in its entirety OT AND NT.
It is impossible, wondering, to truly perceive or understand Christ, apart from the full context in which He was revealed. He cannot be found by focusing on or elevating the parts of your choosing. Please show where in the Bible you find that method of yours set-forth or permitted, or is it solely from/by your own human reasoning. Approaching the Bible from that standpoint is a violation of biblical admonitions to not do exactly that and which leads to incorrect interpretations. You see, by it being a fully and truly self-contained book, the Bible also provides rules and guidance for its own interpretation which rules must be adhered to. They are not open for discussion nor modification.
Therefore, you shouldn't separate Christ from it since it was written and intended by God as one single integrated whole: one part setting the stage, providing foundation, and as the requirements to gain understanding of its other parts.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV]
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[1Co 2:13 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Speaking of a post not being worthy of a reply!

The above does not properly represent what I believe.

Please don't ASSUME anything about me and just go by what I post.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Having faith or believing in God is the springboard for our actions.

We do not 'do' faith, but we 'do' good works.
.

LOL
Jethro Bodine is speaking about grammar -
and you're speaking about biblical principles.
You're both right!

 

[Cooper]

LOL
Jethro Bodine is speaking about grammar -
and you're speaking about biblical principles.
You're both right!

Grammar, by which is meant to have a good understanding of what is written or spoken, is the root cause of many disputes. Small differences turn into chasms. The evidence is before our very eyes, and it widens out into a different understanding of scripture, hence the various cults whereby much of the Christian message is lost, perhaps leading to our eternal damnation.

"Faith Without Works Is Dead." (James 2) They may be both nouns, but faith is not works and works is not faith.
.

 

[rogerg]

Okay. That means you consider the people in Hebrews 6:4-6 saved people, not unsaved people, for they are enlightened. Which means Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about saved people who fall away and aren't allowed to come back to repentance because it puts Christ to open shame.

I thought you were going to share the verses you found that support your contention of faith
and trust - that God gives faith to everyone but that it is up to the individual of themselves to choose to have
a trust in the gospel?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Having faith or believing in God, both are the same, are the springboard for our actions.

Yes, HAVING faith and believing are the same thing because both are verbs.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, HAVING faith and believing are the same thing because both are verbs.

Murder is a verb as well.
.

 

[electedbyHim]

OK. I really don't care to discuss this.
Arminius started out as a calvinist.
Then he changed his mind about some things.
I'm not an arminian because he didn't live till the 1,500's.
Christianity began in the first century.
So I like to call myself a Christian.
I don't follow a man, as calvinists do...
I follow Jesus and the church He began with His new ideas.



I also posted a paragraph from a book Calvin wrote.
You follow Calvin.
So you believe in predestination.
If God has already predestines everyone from the beginning of the world,
how would your prayer about Susan make any difference?
Susan is getting saved or not, whether you pray for her or not.
Do you understand really well what predestination is?
Do you accept it or not?
If you accept it, there's no use in praying for Susan.

And, yes, Jesus would never have instructed the Apostles to go into all the world and preach and teach
if Jesus knew this teaching would count for nothing.
Yes, it would count for nothing because God already has everything predestined.

So, I would safely assume, that if Jesus gave the command to go and preach,
it's because a person retains the free will choice of accepting salvation or turning it down.



Could you please find some verses that state that man is so totally depraved that he is UNABLE to seek God?
(I may have already asked you this).


Prove it please.


See the following verses:

1 Timothy 4:10
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
1 John 2:2
John 3:16-18
Ephesians 2:8-9



It's not that they were never chosen,
they never wished to be saved.
John 3:16


The NT says otherwise.
Please explain
2 Peter 2:20-22
. 20And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before.
21It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.
22They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

Way to much here to debate. It is not expedient to waste time refuting what you claim. You will believe how you will no matter what.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY OR INABILITY (= "T" of TULIP)

The first point asserts that the entire or TOTAL human being--body and soul, intellect and will, etc.--is fallen and that everyone is born spiritually dead, helpless, and passive; indeed, everyone is worse than volitionally dead or unable to desire spiritual good but is actually enslaved to sin, positively and actively hostile to the things of the Spirit (Calvinists cite, e.g., John. 1:13; 8:43, 47; 10:26; 12:37-40; 18:37; Romans. 7:18; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians. 2:9-14).

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (= "U" of TULIP)

The second point inescapably follows from the first: since one is born totally depraved and enslaved to sin, one's ELECTION cannot be dependent or CONTINGENT on any spiritually worthy actions one commits. According to this point, God predestines or chooses to soften the hard, sin-enslaved hearts of certain fallen individuals and liberate them from their death not because of any merit they have but despite their demerits--i.e., He ELECTS to change their hearts (and thereby join them to Christ and His saving work) DESPITE the fact that they hate God and oppose Him and have hard hearts, not soft hearts, and have sin-enslaved wills, not free wills. Thus, believers have no reason to boast about themselves or their own actions: the only thing that differentiates them from Judas, Esau, or others who never respond in faith is that God gave them grace that He withheld from such reprobates (Calvinists cite, e.g., Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Rom. 9:11-18; 1 Cor. 4:7; Eph. 2:8-10; cf. Jn. 1:13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; 16:14; 18:27; Phil. 2:13).

LIMITED ATONEMENT or Particular Redemption (= "L" of TULIP)

This point says that while Christ's blood--indeed, His entire life, death, and resurrection--is infinitely INTENSIVE in saving power and thus unlimited in one sense, it is not infinitely EXTENSIVE and is thus limited, not universal, in the extent of its application; for while everyone CONDITIONALLY or "provisionally" shares in Christ's life, death, and resurrection (thus, if everyone believed, everyone would be joined or married to Christ), only members of Christ's body or bride or flock (ELECT believers) actually share in His blood (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 10:11, 15, 26; 17:9; cf. 6:37, 39; 17:2, 6, 24).

IRRESISTIBLE (SUFFICIENT) GRACE (= "I" of TULIP)

This is virtually a synonym for Luther's slogan "grace alone" (sola gratia) and is logically implied by points "T" and "U" above. It teaches that God's INWARD CALL is perfectly EFFECTUAL or SUFFICIENT--a hard, fleshly, sinful heart need not add anything to God's grace, such as "co-operation," for this special call or grace is invincible, overpowering all hatred and melting all opposition (Calvinists cite, e.g., Jn. 3:6-8). Here Calvinists distinguish God's inward, effectual call--i.e., IRRESISTIBLE GRACE or sufficient, effective grace--from His outward call, which is simply His commandments written on tablets of stone. The latter is eminently resistible, insufficient, and ineffective to give life to a dead soul or liberate a sin-enslaved heart (e.g., Acts 7:51; 13:39; Rom. 8:3).


PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS or Eternal Security (= "P" of TULIP)

This is not the idea that no matter what a believer does he or she cannot lose his or her salvation but the idea that " . . . He who began a good work in you will perfect it . . " (Phil. 1:6 [NASB]; cf., e.g., Jn. 6:37, 39; 10:28-29; Rom. 8:31-39)--i.e., the idea that whenever God creates faith in our hearts and thereby joins us to Christ and His saving work, He will sustain that faith, that saving relationship with Christ, causing us, by His grace, to persevere in faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought you were going to share the verses you found that support your contention of faith
and trust - that God gives faith to everyone but that it is up to the individual of themselves to choose to have
a trust in the gospel?

It is incumbent upon the person to whom the Holy Spirit has testified to then keep and retain the word of the gospel in them in believing.

1 John 2:24-25
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.


This message that we hear from the beginning is the message of the gospel that goes out to everyone by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Some believe it and retain it within themselves. Others (most) reject the truth spoken by the Holy Spirit and do not keep it in them in believing, in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

1 John 5:6,9-11
6 And it is the Spirit who testifies to this (about Jesus-see context), because the Spirit is the truth.
9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony (of the Holy Spirit-vs.6) within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

It's like in the Parable of the Sower. All the different kinds of land were subjected to the word of the kingdom. But the difference between them was whether or not the land retained in a believing and brought to fruition the word sown in them.

It isn't enough just to know the truth spoken by the Holy Spirit. You have to have it within you and retain it in a believing, not just a knowing. The Holy Spirit tells everyone it's true. Just knowing the gospel is true won't save you. Retaining it in believing, trusting in it that by it you are forgiven and made at peace with God, that is what saves you.

It's the difference between simply knowing the gospel is true, because the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, told you it's true, and placing your trust in that truth, cherishing it in the heart and being born again by that word. Many are called but few are chosen. The called who are then chosen take the truth they have been shown by the Spirit to heart, retaining it. All the others who are called cast the truth away choosing not to believe the truth God has shown them about Jesus and the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

My explanation of God is unworthy of a reply?

I've informed you multiple times that besides a passing familiarity with Calvin, apparently having
reached (some/many?) of same conclusions as he, I have not come to those conclusions because
of him but by/from the Bible alone - and I almost always provide supporting verses for those conclusions
(which conclusions anyone is free to argue against). However, neither do I think Calvin wrong, at least to the degree that I understand his POV. But I am neither his nor anyone's acolyte - I place nothing nor any one between myself and the Bible. After having informed you of this, you nevertheless insist on saying otherwise about me, which in effect, is calling me a liar.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Murder is a verb as well.
.

Yes, any and all occurrences are verbs. Occurrences of thought, of attitude, of physical action, etc.-all are classified as verbs.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, any and all occurrences are verbs. Occurrences of thought, of attitude, of physical action, etc.-all are classified as verbs.

And they all describe a different action. Running, jumping and skipping are all verbs. But they are not the same, and to build a religion on it is foolishness.
,