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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

As I'm showing you from scripture, you do not need to be saved to hear, and then receive or reject, the testimony of the Holy Spirit.
How do you interpret what these verses?

[Mat 13:13-14 KJV]
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 
For the unbeliever who has yet to accept or reject the word of faith in believing the 'hearing' is spiritual only in the sense that it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart, not audible words speaking. That's the spiritual element of it. You don't have to be saved to hear the Holy Spirit testifying to you that the gospel is true.

I think at this point we've pretty much come full circle. While I've enjoyed it, I don't see much point in
starting another loop.
 
Yes, but 'belief' is faith retained in the heart in believing.
Isn't that redundant?
Believing implies trust and confidence in what you know to be true that you can't see.
Faith is simply knowing what you can't see is true.
Believing implies faith.
Faith implies belief.
Why try to distinguish the one from the other?
Faith and believing are inseparable for the believer. The believer is the one who has retained the word of faith spoken to them by the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, not just told by the Holy Spirit the word of faith.
Agreed.
It is just semantics that we have been discussing.
 
For the unbeliever who has yet to accept or reject the word of faith in believing the 'hearing' is spiritual only in the sense that it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart, not audible words speaking. That's the spiritual element of it. You don't have to be saved to hear the Holy Spirit testifying to you that the gospel is true.

I missed this post before and didn't want to leave it hanging out there

I think that you do have to be saved to hear, as a spiritually dead person can't hear or comprehend things spiritual just as a physically dead person can't hear or comprehend things of physical life. And before being given spiritual life, we were all spiritually dead. In any event, hearing on any level is not what gives spiritual life/salvation, it comes only by Christ, that's why His title is Saviour - because He alone saves. Otherwise, salvation would be of our work, yet we cannot be saved by any of our works. Our works for salvation brings only the wrath of God.
 
Way to much here to debate. It is not expedient to waste time refuting what you claim. You will believe how you will no matter what.
You will also believe what you will believe.
But make sure you're following Jesus and not John Calvin.

Why did you post T.U.L.I.P.?
 
I think that you do have to be saved to hear, as a spiritually dead person can't hear or comprehend things spiritual just as a physically dead person can't hear or comprehend things of physical life. And before being given spiritual life, we were all spiritually dead. In any event, hearing on any level is not what gives spiritual life/salvation, it comes only by Christ, that's why His title is Saviour - because He alone saves. Otherwise, salvation would be of our work, yet we cannot be saved by any of our works. Our works for salvation brings only the wrath of God.
You have to be born again to UNDERSTAND,,,not to hear.

Otherwise why would Romans state that faith comes BY HEARING?
Did Paul not know what he was saying?
Why change what Paul stated?

Faith comes by hearing.
Romans 10:14-17
14But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?
15And how will anyone go and tell them without being sent? That is why the Scriptures say, “How beautiful are the feet of messengers who bring good news!”

16But not everyone welcomes the Good News, for Isaiah the prophet said, “LORD, who has believed our message?” 17So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.


Faith comes by hearing the good news about Christ.


Understanding comes by believing.
1 Corinthians 2:14
14But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.



Understanding comes by believing the good news.
 
Way to much here to debate. It is not expedient to waste time refuting what you claim. You will believe how you will no matter what.
Here.
This is easy - from my post which you cannot answer.

Please find some verses that state that man is so depraved as to be UNABLE to seek and find God.

Thanks.
 
I've informed you multiple times that besides a passing familiarity with Calvin, apparently having
reached (some/many?) of same conclusions as he, I have not come to those conclusions because
of him but by/from the Bible alone - and I almost always provide supporting verses for those conclusions
(which conclusions anyone is free to argue against). However, neither do I think Calvin wrong, at least to the degree that I understand his POV. But I am neither his nor anyone's acolyte - I place nothing nor any one between myself and the Bible. After having informed you of this, you nevertheless insist on saying otherwise about me, which in effect, is calling me a liar.
I keep being told I'm an arminiun and I don't know about Jacob Arminius.
Also, Arminius is not the head of an important movement as Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zilweg and others were.

What is Calvin's point of view?
 
You will also believe what you will believe.
But make sure you're following Jesus and not John Calvin.

Why did you post T.U.L.I.P.?
I am not certain why you think I follow Calvin. I do not have any of his books.

I posted TULIP because these are the doctrines the Bible teaches. I also thought it answer some of the questions you asked me. The scriptures show this.

On a side note, I used to believe I could choose God and salvation, but the more I studied Scripture the Lord opened my eyes to His Sovereignty.

I apologize, I probably should have not even entered this thread. I have debated and defended these biblical doctrines for years.

Many believe these are heretical doctrines, but they were taught before the Reformers, the Bible teaches the doctrines oof Grace (TULIP)

Grace and peace to you.
 
Here.
This is easy - from my post which you cannot answer.

Please find some verses that state that man is so depraved as to be UNABLE to seek and find God.

Thanks.
I posted them earlier but you tried to say Paul was quoting OT or someting to that effect.

This is what I believe


Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore, the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners
 
I am not certain why you think I follow Calvin. I do not have any of his books.

I posted TULIP because these are the doctrines the Bible teaches. I also thought it answer some of the questions you asked me. The scriptures show this.

On a side note, I used to believe I could choose God and salvation, but the more I studied Scripture the Lord opened my eyes to His Sovereignty.

I apologize, I probably should have not even entered this thread. I have debated and defended these biblical doctrines for years.

Many believe these are heretical doctrines, but they were taught before the Reformers, the Bible teaches the doctrines oof Grace (TULIP)

Grace and peace to you.
E, you can be in any thread you wish to be in.
You're a nice, civil member and it's a pleasure to have you on this forum.

I don't know how else to tell you this...I'm not being hard of hearing...I think you may not realize some things.
Sorry if I'm wrong about this.

T.U.L.I.P. is an acronym for what the reformed faith teaches.
Another very popular way to denote the reformed faith is to call is calvinism.
This term seems to be better understood, although the correct designation is REFORMED.

If you believe that TULIP is what the bible teaches, then you're a calvinist.
It's a theology...all of Christianity, except the reformed, do not believe in TULIP doctrines.
So you're going to get some push back and it's good that you back it up with scripture.

I wish you had kept believing that a person CAN choose God and salvation because God had put this plan of choosing His Son from the beginning.

I'm one of those that believes that TULIP is heretical. Heretical just means that something is believed that is outside of mainline Christianity.

What I do not agree on in your above post is that TULIP was taught before the reformation. This is not true.
The church never believed in predestination...and also, TULIP does not signify the grace of God...
Grace means that God loves all of His creation (mankind).
TULIP does not show this love of God since He chooses some for damnation.
 
I posted them earlier but you tried to say Paul was quoting OT or someting to that effect.

This is what I believe
I know everything of what you posted.
I've studied calvinism for some years now.

Here's something important from your posted belief.
It states that man is born so depraved that he is unable to seek after God.

All Christianity believes that man is born depraved.
The difference is that we believe man is CAPABLE of seeking after God and finding Him.
Here are some verses that show this to be true.
Check it out.

 
I posted them earlier but you tried to say Paul was quoting OT or someting to that effect.

This is what I believe
I may actually go through the entire post.
But it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
It's almost 10 pm here.

Not that I think it'll change your mind,
but it's good to know both sides of the coin.
 
E, you can be in any thread you wish to be in.
You're a nice, civil member and it's a pleasure to have you on this forum.

I don't know how else to tell you this...I'm not being hard of hearing...I think you may not realize some things.
Sorry if I'm wrong about this.

T.U.L.I.P. is an acronym for what the reformed faith teaches.
Another very popular way to denote the reformed faith is to call is calvinism.
This term seems to be better understood, although the correct designation is REFORMED.

If you believe that TULIP is what the bible teaches, then you're a calvinist.
It's a theology...all of Christianity, except the reformed, do not believe in TULIP doctrines.
So you're going to get some push back and it's good that you back it up with scripture.

I wish you had kept believing that a person CAN choose God and salvation because God had put this plan of choosing His Son from the beginning.

I'm one of those that believes that TULIP is heretical. Heretical just means that something is believed that is outside of mainline Christianity.

What I do not agree on in your above post is that TULIP was taught before the reformation. This is not true.
The church never believed in predestination...and also, TULIP does not signify the grace of God...
Grace means that God loves all of His creation (mankind).
TULIP does not show this love of God since He chooses some for damnation.

I do not believe that many Christians understand Gods sovereignty that is taught in the Bible, I also think many Christians equate Gods love to a human kind of love, so they would not understand His love and justice.

I been labeled all kinds things. I believe I am a follower of Christ, a Christian. I get I will be labeled a Calvinist or Reformed. I just see the doctrines of Grace in the Bible. They were in there before they were popularized by the Reformers.


I don't know how else to tell you this...I'm not being hard of hearing...I think you may not realize some things.
Sorry if I'm wrong about this
I understand all that you have said. No apology needed.

I think many of us do not realize a lot of things.

Grace and peace to you.
 
I think many of us do not realize a lot of things.
i think your right when we get to heaven it probably wont matter other than our name is written in the lamb book of life. Calvinism/ reformed is hard to understand. i have examined it honestly parts i just cant agree with . mainly on the way person is saved. that is why i hold to free will . when GOD draws us through conviction of the Holy Spirit . we can ignore it and run from it. But when he corners you there is no room but go forward ..

to be honest i am not interested in name tags or denomination doctrine. just solo scripture every one will see scripture different .
 
There more to the reformed then Sola scriptura.often which even then outside of Catholicism isn't much practiced as eisigis is used .

Ie some of the whackky charismatic theology and arminist extreme of sin less perfection .ordination of women in offices they can't have .

There are the Sola gratis,solo fide ,solo Gloria de dio and one more
 
sin less perfection .? i dont have a poster and i dont know where its taught . we are to be perfect complete in Christ but it is never %100 attainable here. only till we make it to heaven,

i certainly dont teach or believe that when we are saved we are justified declared righteous ( not of our own doing) But what Christ done for us . we then are sanctified 3 step positional placed into the Body of Christ 2. progressive we are a work in progress Changed from glory to glory /aka a w.i.p work in progress. 3 finial/ultimate we made it to heaven we have a glorified Body / the old sinful nature is gone for good.

i dont know or when this sinless perfection came in at. but it is false teaching !!!
 
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