CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Jethro Bodine]

If, as you say, that faith is supernatural, and given to everyone, then would it really be supernatural on that basis?

Faith is supernatural because it's the Spirit of truth testifying in a natural world.

I think it would only be considered supernatural if it were not given to everyone but only to a select subset of people. If not given to everyone, then what differentiates between those who receive it and those who don't?

The difference between those who receive and retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit and those who don't is those who receive and retain it believe in it. They want it and cherish in their hearts, trusting that it's truth will save them.

That notwithstanding, the faith demonstrated, was of a faith given by Christ to those of Heb 11(and to all who become saved) and was not of their making nor choice.

The visitation of faith through the word of the Holy Spirit is entirely a sovereign act of God. He picks the time and place that a person hears the Holy Spirit testifying to the truth of God's promise. The choice to receive or reject it is ours. Those who receive and retain it in believing are saved. Those who reject it, refusing to believe it are lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And they all describe a different action. Running, jumping and skipping are all verbs. But they are not the same, and to build a religion on it is foolishness.
,

You'll understand this better if you understand that a verb is an occurrence of something. The word 'action' is accurate in describing what a verb is, but it immediately lends itself to thinking in terms of an actual, physical action. But that's just one aspect of a verb. The occurrence of something is what constitutes a verb. The occurrence of a thought. The occurrence of a feeling. The occurrence of deciding to believe and retain the truth of the gospel. These occurrences may then manifest themselves in outward actions as you said.

But the point is, verbs are not restricted to physical action. That does not completely define a verb. The occurrence of something does. I'm not a smart guy. I'm not very educated (I have some Jr. College credits, lol). I just know how to find out things. Google is a great resource. A verb is an occurrence of something. Believing (a verb) is an occurrence of faith (a noun). Believing is what actually justifies a person. Not faith alone. Just knowing the gospel is true does not save anybody. Believing in it does.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then there is no more falling away into sin, as sin means you are damned, as sin is unbelief in the rising of Jesus Christ in righteousness to life.

Maybe somebody's sin is that, maybe it's not.
When I sin it's not because I'm deciding to not believe and trust in God's forgiveness anymore. Maybe it is that for some people, but it is not for me. When I sin it's usually out of lack of vigilance, ignorance of a situation, and, well, often out of just sheer stupidity. But never out of a decision to not trust in and want God's forgiveness anymore. I'm not saying that can never happen. I'm just saying that is not why I sin now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

our belief is by the faith of Christ first being imputed to us.

...but not in salvation. You do in fact have to have faith first in order to then believe (you can't believe in anything you don't know about and don't know is true). The assertion I'm resisting is that the faith a person has to have first is that of a saved, born again person. The faith a person has to have first is the faith, the conviction (Hebrews 11:1) that the gospel that God wants you to believe and trust in really is true. THAT is the faith that has to come first before a person can then believe in the gospel and be saved. And that faith comes through the calling of God through the testimony of the Holy Spirit to all people. Some retain that faith and so we say they 'have' faith. While most reject it and do not have faith. They've rejected it (1 John 5:9-10).

The distinction of trusting, as opposed to believing, I do not find being made in Heb 11. I

Faith is simply "the evidence of things not seen". Just knowing the gospel is true because the Holy Spirit showed you it's true doesn't save anybody. Only those who believe and trust in the evidence the Holy Spirit has given them about the truth of Jesus and the gospel will be saved. You have to believe in what the power of faith has shown you to be true in order to be saved by that truth.

 

[Cooper]

You'll understand this better if you understand that a verb is an occurrence of something. The word 'action' is accurate in describing what a verb is, but it immediately lends itself to thinking in terms of an actual, physical action. But that's just one aspect of a verb. The occurrence of something is what constitutes a verb. The occurrence of a thought. The occurrence of a feeling. The occurrence of deciding to believe and retain the truth of the gospel. These occurrences may then manifest themselves in outward actions as you said.

But the point is, verbs are not restricted to physical action. That does not completely define a verb. The occurrence of something does. I'm not a smart guy. I'm not very educated (I have some Jr. College credits, lol). I just know how to find out things. Google is a great resource. A verb is an occurrence of something. Believing (a verb) is an occurrence of faith (a noun). Believing is what actually justifies a person. Not faith alone. Just knowing the gospel is true does not save anybody. Believing in it does.

Jethro, the Jehovah Witnesses use word play the same as you are doing, and I want nothing to do with your dangerous misguided religion, so to use a verb, please STOP it. Thank you.
.

 

[rogerg]

Faith is supernatural because it's the Spirit of truth testifying in a natural world.

Aren't faith and testifying different things? Isn't testifying bearing witness, while
faith giving a conviction that something is true?

The difference between those who receive and retain the testimony of the Holy Spirit and those who don't is those who receive and retain it believe in it. They want it and cherish in their hearts, trusting that it's truth will save them.

Sorry - a little confused. What do you see as the functional difference between faith (first quote), belief and trusting (above)?

The visitation of faith through the word of the Holy Spirit is entirely a sovereign act of God. He picks the time and place that a person hears the Holy Spirit testifying to the truth of God's promise. The choice to receive or reject it is ours. Those who receive and retain it in believing are saved. Those who reject it, refusing to believe it are lost.

Never encountered the phrase " the visitation of faith" before so I'm not sure what is meant by it? Anyway, according to your doctrine of faith as opposed to trust, wouldn't someone actually have to be given faith first - not just somehow being exposed to it - by which, they may or may not then choose to trust the gospel (again, your doctrine, not mine)? Otherwise, they wouldn't have the prerequisite faith to produce trust.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Aren't faith and testifying different things? Isn't testifying bearing witness, while
faith giving a conviction that something is true?

Romans 10:17
17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry - a little confused. What do you see as the functional difference between faith (first quote), belief and trusting (above)?

Faith is simply knowing something is true that you can't see. Believing in it is actually trusting in what you know is true that you can't see.

 

[rogerg]

.but not in salvation. You do in fact have to have faith first in order to then believe (you can't believe in anything you don't know about and don't know is true). The assertion I'm resisting is that the faith a person has to have first is that of a saved, born again person. The faith a person has to have first is the faith, the conviction (Hebrews 11:1) that the gospel that God wants you to believe and trust in really is true. THAT is the faith that has to come first before a person can then believe in the gospel and be saved. And that faith comes through the calling of God through the testimony of the Holy Spirit to all people. Some retain that faith and so we say they 'have' faith. While most reject it and do not have faith. They've rejected it (1 John 5:9-10).

Sorry, my fault, but I'm confused as to how you're using faith, belief and trust. It seems to me that you use them interchangeably - at least you are saying in order for someone to get faith they must already have faith, which produces a logical conundrum.
Anyway, if you scrutinize the below verses closely, it can be seen that, yes, one must be first saved to be given faith. However, obtaining it is not what caused (their) salvation, but instead, it comes as a result or byproduct of salvation.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Faith is simply "the evidence of things not seen". Just knowing the gospel is true because the Holy Spirit showed you it's true doesn't save anybody. Only those who believe and trust in the evidence the Holy Spirit has given them about the truth of Jesus and the gospel will be saved. You have to believe in what the power of faith has shown you to be true in order to be saved by that truth.

I guess I see it in the reverse: that only those saved will believe in and trust the gospel.
Others, I believe, cannot.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 10:17
17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Yes, but I think that "hearing" of the verse is the hearing of spiritual ears, not human ears.
Only those saved can hear the spiritual with spiritual ears

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Never encountered the phrase " the visitation of faith" before so I'm not sure what is meant by it?

Romans 10:17
17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, but I think that "hearing" of the verse is the hearing of spiritual ears, not human ears.

Yes, it's the hearing of the mind and heart and spirit. It's the testimony of the Holy Spirit to the heart of a man. Here John differentiates between the spiritual testimony of the Holy Spirit and the human spoken testimony of men.

1 John 5:6-10
6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify:b 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God (the Holy Spirit-vs.6) is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

Only those saved can hear the spiritual with spiritual ears

As I'm showing you from scripture EVERYONE hears the spiritual testimony of the Holy Spirit. Some hear it and receive and retain it. Some hear it and REJECT it, calling the Holy Spirit a liar, and are lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I guess I see it in the reverse: that only those saved will believe in and trust the gospel.
Others, I believe, cannot.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As I'm showing you from scripture, you do not need to be saved to hear, and then receive or reject, the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

 

[rogerg]

Faith is simply knowing something is true that you can't see. Believing in it is actually trusting in what you now know is true that you can't see.

Faith, "knowing?" (using your terminology), and if you want to call it that, is not from/of/by the person, but comes as a gift of God, given only to those who have become saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Anyway, if you scrutinize the below verses closely, it can be seen that, yes, one must be first saved to be given faith. However, obtaining it is not what caused (their) salvation, but instead, it comes as a result or byproduct of salvation.

[Jhn 12:37, 39-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They rejected the truth first. Then they were prevented from believing by God.

 

[Hopeful]

Faith is simply knowing something is true that you can't see. Believing in it is actually trusting in what you know is true that you can't see.

Faith is belief that something you can't see is true.
Belief is faith that something you can't see is true.
Why try to define a difference when they are inseparable?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith, "knowing?" (using your terminology), and if you want to call it that, is not from/of/by the person, but comes as a gift of God...

Yes, it's a gift of God. Because it comes by the testimony of the Holy Spirit as God chooses when and where to gift you with the faith that comes by the hearing of the word about Jesus. Some choose to reject it when they hear it. Some choose to receive and retain it. I'm showing you this right in scripture.

, given only to those who have become saved.

I'm showing you right in 1 John 5:6-11 that ALL hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit convincing them of the truth about Jesus (for He is the Spirit of truth). Some choose to believe it, retaining it within them. While some reject it, in effect calling the Holy Spirit who testifies a liar. If only already saved people heard and received the testimony of the word of faith given by the Holy Spirit there would be no mention in the passage of people who have not believed in the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Faith is belief that something you can't see is true.
Belief is faith that something you can't see is true.

Yes, but 'belief' is faith retained in the heart in believing.
Believing implies trust and confidence in what you know to be true that you can't see.
Faith is simply knowing what you can't see is true.

Why try to define a difference when they are inseparable?

Faith and believing are inseparable for the believer. The believer is the one who has retained the word of faith spoken to them by the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, not just told by the Holy Spirit the word of faith.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 10:17
17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The "hearing" is with spiritual ears, without which, no one can correctly hear nor comprehend the word of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "hearing" is with spiritual ears, without which, no one can correctly hear nor comprehend the word of Christ.

For the unbeliever who has yet to accept or reject the word of faith in believing the 'hearing' is spiritual only in the sense that it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit speaking to the heart, not audible words speaking. That's the spiritual element of it. You don't have to be saved to hear the Holy Spirit testifying to you that the gospel is true.