CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Hopeful]

let me ask you this using this scripture

James 4:17​

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” there is sin of commission sin of omission

Amen to that.

i dont question your obedience to God . do you do every thing %100 that is asked of you by the Holy Spirit ?

Of course I do, and He starts with "love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

say if i was do (say) something to make you extremely angry , paul wrote be ye angry and sin not ?

In this hypothetical case, I trust Christ in me to keep me from being too angry.
It wouldn't provoke me to commit sin, though, whatever it was.

we still sin . that dont mean we revert back to our old lifestyle . it means we fail at time to do what we know we should do.

If one sins, they mean it. (James 1:14-15)

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9) -- if your sinless then your saying you no longer need Christ .

Not saying that at all.
We need Christ for a lot more that just His advocacy for sins.
Why do you think that is the only thing He is good for?
I thank Him for almost every green light I get in traffic !
Not to mention the foods, and clothes, and truck insurance, and...etc.

why would paul write put off the old man put on the new man. ?

Because they had not done so yet.

when we fail to do something asked of us and don't, it is a sin of the commission

Agreed.
Honor your vows.

Why is it that obedience to God is considered a false doctrine?
no body said it was

Every false doctrine is a fight to accommodate disobedience to God in our lives.

.let me ask it this way do you cross every T and dot every I in your walk with the Lord .

Not being under the Law, there are not "T's" or "I's" to cross/dot.
Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
No crossing's or dotting's are inherent in the law of Christ.

if we was that perfect we would not need Jesus

You can't remain obedient to God without Christ.
The OT Jews were proof of that.

Romans 7:14–20

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, w sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For xI do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with ythe law, that it is good. 17 So now zit is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells ain me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 bFor I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, c it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. ​

Paul's lament of a previous life of failure to keep the Law mirrors our own lives prior to conversion.
Had you added verses 23 and 24, I would have shown you that his laments had been answered in Romans 8:2 and in Rom 6:6.

dont tell me you never act out in the flesh

I don't, as it was crucified with Christ, with it's vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

I AM not questioning your dedication to the Lord. we all try to do our best but still fall short.
i don't think your some horrible sinner who does bad things all the time .you need re examine your statement

Someone has convinced you that Jesus isn't enough for you to have power over yourself.
I pity that person, as his final judgement is coming.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes.
By virtue of 'having' faith there has to be faith present to have.

NO!
This is the point I'm trying to make.
Just because someone knows the gospel really is true, because the Holy Spirit told them it's true, does not mean that person then believes in it. Knowing the truth does not save anybody. Trusting in it does.

If you don't have faith in something, you won't believe it.
"Having faith", and "believing", and even "knowing" and "conviction", in some cases, are synonymous.

Because faith is by definition a conviction that the gospel is true, while 'believing' is retaining that conviction in the heart, trusting in it's truth to save you. Just because someone knows the gospel is true doesn't mean they have placed their trust in it.

Semantics.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don't have faith in something, you won't believe it.

That is correct. Because to 'have' faith is to believe. Trusting in what you know, by the Holy Spirit, to be true. Not just knowing it's true.

 

[rogerg]

The seeing and hearing necessary to receive the gospel comes by revelation through the word of faith, the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus.

No, that is not what those verses say. The testimony of Jesus is not given by the Holy Spirit to everyone. It is only as a result of having become born-again. Even using your theory (just for the sake of argument), if it were true, then how could revelation come to someone who is spiritually oblivious to that revelation, and without spiritual seeing, hearing, and understanding, they would be oblivious to it. Instead, the giving of spiritual eyes, ears and understanding by God is also the giving of the revelation of Christ. Therefore, because not given to all, God did not choose that all have it. Those not so chosen will never be healed.

This verse preceded the other ones I posted, maybe it will make it clearer. Notice the "given" in the verse. The knowledge of things spiritual is only received from it being given.

[Mat 13:11 KJV]
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Having faith", and "believing", and even "knowing" and "conviction", in some cases, are synonymous.

You have to 'know' and be 'convicted' of the truth of the gospel before you can then choose to believe in it. Faith is the power to know and be convicted that the gospel is true so that you can then believe and trust in what you now know to be true. Some people, when they are shown by the Spirit that the gospel is true, choose to not believe and trust in it and cast what the Holy Spirit has shown them to be true away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Even using your theory (just for the sake of argument), if it were true, then how could revelation come to someone who is spiritually oblivious to that revelation, and without spiritual seeing, hearing, and understanding

How? The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, testifies to them that it's true. I showed you this in 1 John 5:6-11. The Matthew 13 verses you're sharing are about people who have already rejected the testimony of God and have been turned over by God to not be able to hear or discern spiritual truths. Which is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about—being turned over to your choice to not retain the gospel message by not being allowed to ever repent again because doing that subjects Christ to open shame.

 

[rogerg]

How? The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, testifies to them that it's true. I showed you this in 1 John 5:6-11. The Matthew 13 verses you're sharing are about people who have already rejected the testimony of God and have been turned over by God to not be able to hear or discern spiritual truths.

Only those who believe on the Son are they who had been given the Holy Spirit. Those who didn't believe were not given the Holy Spirit, or they would believe. So, the Holy Spirit is not given to everyone.

[1Jo 5:10 KJV]
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

How do you know those of Mat 13 had already rejected the testimony of God? Those verses say that they
they COULD NOT hear, not that they heard but rejected.

 

[jerry63935]

Amen to that.

Of course I do, and He starts with "love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."

In this hypothetical case, I trust Christ in me to keep me from being too angry.
It wouldn't provoke me to commit sin, though, whatever it was.

If one sins, they mean it. (James 1:14-15)

Not saying that at all.
We need Christ for a lot more that just His advocacy for sins.
Why do you think that is the only thing He is good for?
I thank Him for almost every green light I get in traffic !
Not to mention the foods, and clothes, and truck insurance, and...etc.

Because they had not done so yet.

Agreed.
Honor your vows.

Every false doctrine is a fight to accommodate disobedience to God in our lives.

Not being under the Law, there are not "T's" or "I's" to cross/dot.
Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
No crossing's or dotting's are inherent in the law of Christ.

You can't remain obedient to God without Christ.
The OT Jews were proof of that.

Paul's lament of a previous life of failure to keep the Law mirrors our own lives prior to conversion.
Had you added verses 23 and 24, I would have shown you that his laments had been answered in Romans 8:2 and in Rom 6:6.

I don't, as it was crucified with Christ, with it's vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)

Someone has convinced you that Jesus isn't enough for you to have power over yourself.
I pity that person, as his final judgement is coming.

after reading all this and especially this part
We need Christ for a lot more that just His advocacy for sins.
{Why do you think that is the only thing He is good for?} have you lost your mind? i never said that at all .i Hope you dont hurt your arm patting your self on the back. i have read a lot but yours puts the icing on the cake.. you sure think alot of your self they way you use i any more of this self righteousness YOU GO BACK ON IGNORE

 

[jerry63935]

ou have to 'know' and be 'convicted' of the truth of the gospel before you can then choose to believe in it.

he was born saved

 

[jerry63935]

f you don't have faith in something, you won't believe it.

shazam you almost have it

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you know those of Mat 13 had already rejected the testimony of God? Those verses say that they
they COULD NOT hear, not that they heard but rejected.

We know that from this:

Romans 10:16-21

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”h 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,

their words to the ends of the world.”i

19I ask instead, did Israel not understand? First, Moses says:

“I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation;

I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.”j

20And Isaiah boldly says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;

I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me.”k

21But as for Israel he says:

“All day long I have held out My hands

to a disobedient and obstinate people.”l

 

[Hopeful]

That is correct. Because to 'have' faith is to believe. Trusting in what you know, by the Holy Spirit, to be true. Not just knowing it's true.

Belief and faith are inseparable.

 

[Hopeful]

You have to 'know' and be 'convicted' of the truth of the gospel before you can then choose to believe in it. Faith is the power to know and be convicted that the gospel is true so that you can then believe and trust in what you now know to be true. Some people, when they are shown by the Spirit that the gospel is true, choose to not believe and trust in it and cast what the Holy Spirit has shown them to be true away.

Yikes...too many laws for me.
I heard the message/gospel, and I believed it.
I had faith it was true, and I believed it.

 

[Hopeful]

shazam you almost have it

I thought you were ignoring me????

 

[Cooper]

Just get yourselves along to the wedding feast and have done. The invitation is for everyone.
.

 

[Cooper]

Some people, when they are shown by the Spirit that the gospel is true, choose to not believe and trust in it and cast what the Holy Spirit has shown them to be true away.

They are the ones who, for whatever the reason did not attend the wedding feast.
.

 

[rogerg]

17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

First, I don't think the verses you posted relate to Mat 3:15 - at least not as far as I can see.
Second, in 10:1, notice that Paul was specifically addressing "Brethren", and not making a general gospel statement; that is, the brethren of 10:1, are of the elect and are those of whom 10:17 pertains, not everyone.
So, therefore, since those of 10:17 are brethren, then the hearing must be spiritual, not physical.
To paraphrase: " faith cometh to the brethren by spiritual hearing and spiritual hearing by the word of God".

[Rom 10:1 KJV] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:

Here again, they could not spiritually hear because their ears were solely physical ears, not spiritual, ears.

“All day long I have held out My hands

to a disobedient and obstinate people.”l

Because they were disobedient and obstinate people, meant that they hadn't
received the Holy Spirit to give them a spiritual knowledge that would change the heart.

 

[Cooper]

.
In response to the thread title, 'can people fall away', we only need to look at the divorce figures.
.

 

[Cooper]

.
Regarding Calvinists. Read up on pride and a secondary subject, the self-righteous Pharisees.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Belief and faith are inseparable.

That is absolutely true. You can't believe and trust in a Jesus that God has not given you the faith from which to do that believing. But you can reject faith and, therefore, not believe and trust in Jesus. That's the part you and a lot of people don't get.

You automatically equate the power to know something is true about the gospel with actually believing and trusting in it. Not true at all. Most people reject the gospel when God convicts them of the reality and truth of the gospel. There is no believing connected to the revelation of the gospel for them. They know the gospel is true, because God showed them it's true, but they turn away from it and reject the faith that God has given them to know it's true.