CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Jethro Bodine]

Yikes...too many laws for me.

I made zero mention of any laws.

I heard the message/gospel, and I believed it.
I had faith it was true, and I believed it.

Yes, God gave you the faith to know the gospel was true. THEN you believed it, placing your trust in it. Faith is the thing through which you did the believing and trusting that justified you. You did not get justified by being shown the gospel really is true. You had to place your trust in it to be justified. Abraham was justified because he believed the promise of God about a son, not because he heard about a promise of a son.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First, I don't think the verses you posted relate to Mat 3:15 - at least not as far as I can see.
Second, in 10:1, notice that Paul was specifically addressing "Brethren", and not making a general gospel statement; that is, the brethren of 10:1, are of the elect and are those of whom 10:17 pertains, not everyone.
So, therefore, since those of 10:17 are brethren, then the hearing must be spiritual, not physical.
To paraphrase: " faith cometh to the brethren by spiritual hearing and spiritual hearing by the word of God".

[Rom 10:1 KJV] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Here again, they could not spiritually hear because their ears were solely physical ears, not spiritual, ears.



Because they were disobedient and obstinate people, meant that they hadn't
received the Holy Spirit to give them a spiritual knowledge that would change the heart.

The Israelites heard and they rejected what they heard. So God gave them over to deafness so they couldn't hear. It's the same thing spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6. When a person rejects the truth the time comes when they are not allowed to hear and respond to the truth. But Calvinism insists that those kind of people were never allowed to respond in the first place. But we can see from scripture that just isn't true. What we see in scripture is God eventually makes those who reject the gospel not able to respond to the gospel.

 

[Randy]

Can a reformed believer remain faithful to Jesus to the end?
Is it by the power and grace of God or of themselves?

Many who were stated as "Jesus disciples " turned away from Him and the cause was unbelief. But they were stated once as "Jesus disciples"

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit e and life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Many are indeed invited but few are chosen.

Only those who do hold to Jesus teachings are defined by Jesus as genuine or authentic.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

I believe God sincerely invites all. Whatever He sees with His eyes in those people's hearts and attitudes causes Him to choose some. Those He chooses will have their hearts opened to believe in Jesus and they will "all" go to Jesus, and it is the Fathers will that He loose none that the Father gives Him and raise them up on the last day.

So, in pondering the question asked I still won't state never but I find it "highly unlikely" that those chosen by God and sent to or given to Jesus will not be kept safe by the power of God to the end.

But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one.

 

[Cooper]

Can a reformed believer remain faithful to Jesus to the end?
Is it by the power and grace of God or of themselves?

Many who were stated as "Jesus disciples " turned away from Him and the cause was unbelief. But they were stated once as "Jesus disciples"

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit e and life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Many are indeed invited but few are chosen.

Only those who do hold to Jesus teachings are defined by Jesus as genuine or authentic.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

I believe God sincerely invites all. Whatever He sees with His eyes in those people's hearts and attitudes causes Him to choose some. Those He chooses will have their hearts opened to believe in Jesus and they will "all" go to Jesus, and it is the Fathers will that He loose none that the Father gives Him and raise them up on the last day.

So, in pondering the question asked I still won't state never but I find it "highly unlikely" that those chosen by God and sent to or given to Jesus will not be kept safe by the power of God to the end.

But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one.

The Lord is faithful, and he will keep us and guide us all the days of our lives, but he does not hold us in chains. He gave us freewill so that we may love Him true.

Hence, the warning to "be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." (1Pe 5:8 KJV) So yes, if we lose sight of the Lord, there is no knowing what might happen. Keep trusting in Him, and follow him all the days of your life, to that crown of gold in glory.


Good post by the way. :yes
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I posted them earlier but you tried to say Paul was quoting OT or someting to that effect.

This is what I believe

Ooops!
What happened to what you believe??

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not believe that many Christians understand Gods sovereignty that is taught in the Bible, I also think many Christians equate Gods love to a human kind of love, so they would not understand His love and justice.

I been labeled all kinds things. I believe I am a follower of Christ, a Christian. I get I will be labeled a Calvinist or Reformed. I just see the doctrines of Grace in the Bible. They were in there before they were popularized by the Reformers.



I understand all that you have said. No apology needed.

I think many of us do not realize a lot of things.

Grace and peace to you.

Hi E,
What we're discussing is too far off topic and going on too long.
I started a new thread regarding our discussion.
I tagged you in and will be replying to WHAT YOU BELIEVE over there.
See you there...

 

[rogerg]

The Israelites heard and they rejected what they heard.

No, it wasn't that they spiritually heard and rejected, it was that they could not hear - they were spiritually oblivious.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

**added "spiritually" to my post for clarity

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it wasn't that they heard and rejected, it was that they could not hear - they were oblivious.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:4 is speaking about the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant (Mosaic) brings death, but the NC brings life.
2 Cor 3:6
6He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

The Israelites did not understand the Laws of Moses because their hearts were hardened.
Hearts are hardened when they do not obey God.

2 Corinthians 3:12-15
12Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold.
13We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away.
14But the people’s minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.

But we are told HOW this veil can be removed:
BY BELIEVING IN CHRIST.

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Also, could you please explain the following to me?

2 Corinthians 4:4 states that satan, the god of this world, has blinded the mind of the non-believers.
2 Cor 11:15 states that satan's servants disguise themselves as servants of righteousness to deceive.

If the above is true, then why do calvinists believe that man is blind from birth and UNABLE to seek God?
It seems to me that satan and his workers do the deceiving at the moment of decision and NOT at birth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, it wasn't that they spiritually heard and rejected, it was that they could not hear - they were spiritually oblivious.

[2Co 4:4 KJV] 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

**added "spiritually" to my post for clarity

I know you have to believe that to preserve your reformist view but the scriptures plainly say they heard the word of faith:

Romans 10:17-18
17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18But I ask, did they not hear (the word of faith/Christ)? Indeed they did:


So which part of this do you not understand? This should be forcing you to examine what you believe. Your other verses don't trump this plain passage of scripture. That's what you have to get through your head. Stop making parts of the Bible not true by misusing other parts of it. So many people do this I'm beginning to tire of it and considering going into retirement. :yes

 

[rogerg]

17...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

18But I ask, did they not hear (the word of faith/Christ)? Indeed they did:

As I said to you in a prior post, the hearing that brings one to faith in Christ
is the ability to comprehend (or hear) spiritually.
They did indeed hear, but they heard with their intellect - or human ears - not by the Holy Spirit.
I've told you this repeatedly, why do you find it so hard to understand?
Whenever you see the words "hear" or "heard", you should make the distinction in your mind which hearing is
in view. You should because it is a distinction made by the Bible.
So, just by posting that they heard, is insufficient of itself to understand the intent of the verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

As I said to you in a prior post, the hearing that brings one to faith in Christ
is the ability to comprehend (or hear) spiritually.
They did indeed hear, but they heard with their intellect - or human ears - not by the Holy Spirit.
I've told you this repeatedly, why do you find it so hard to understand?
Whenever you see the words "hear" or "heard", you should make the distinction in your mind which hearing is
in view. You should because it is a distinction made by the Bible.
So, just by posting that they heard, is insufficient of itself to understand the intent of the verse.

How about replying to: HEAR, LISTEN, TO UNDERSTAND, EVEN AN UNDERSTANDING THAT BRINGS TO FAITH.
Matthew 7:24
24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock.
26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand.
27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”


Hears, Listens
191

​

◄ 191. akouó ►

​

Strong's Concordance akouó: to hear, listen​ Original Word: ἀκούω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: akouó Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o) Definition: to hear, listen Usage: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported. HELPS Word-studies 191 akoúō – properly, to hear (listen); (figuratively) to hear God's voice which prompts Him to birth faith within (cf. Ro 10:17). See 189 (akoē). [191 (akoúō) is the root of the English term, "acoustics."]

source: https://biblehub.com/greek/191.htm

 

[Cooper]

How about replying to: HEAR, LISTEN, TO UNDERSTAND, EVEN AN UNDERSTANDING THAT BRINGS TO FAITH.
Matthew 7:24
24“Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
25Though the rain comes in torrents and the floodwaters rise and the winds beat against that house, it won’t collapse because it is built on bedrock.
26But anyone who hears my teaching and doesn’t obey it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand.
27When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against that house, it will collapse with a mighty crash.”


Hears, Listens
191

​

◄ 191. akouó ►

​

Strong's Concordance akouó: to hear, listen​ Original Word: ἀκούω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: akouó Phonetic Spelling: (ak-oo'-o) Definition: to hear, listen Usage: I hear, listen, comprehend by hearing; pass: is heard, reported. HELPS Word-studies 191 akoúō – properly, to hear (listen); (figuratively) to hear God's voice which prompts Him to birth faith within (cf. Ro 10:17). See 189 (akoē). [191 (akoúō) is the root of the English term, "acoustics."]

source: https://biblehub.com/greek/191.htm

With 'my teaching' of course being the teaching of Jesus and not Calvin or any number of other teachers.
.

 

[rogerg]

It seems to me that satan and his workers do the deceiving at the moment of decision and NOT at birth.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

With 'my teaching' of course being the teaching of Jesus and not Calvin or any number of other teachers.
.

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
My post was to rogerg
I do want to say that Calvin was not "just" a teacher.
He was one of the main characters in starting a new religion that began in 1,500AD.

This religion was not known before then.
They had come from a Christian faith and so they continued to believe they were Christian.
However, the ideas they had were heretical.
I'm referring to Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wittenberg and Zwingli and others.

 

[Cooper]

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

That is a new one to me, but then in the sight of God, we are all sinners from birth, and we have always known that, so nothing new there. I cannot remember the text, but while ever we belong to Satan he leaves us alone until we turn to Christ, and then he turns his spleen on those who belong to the Saviour.

So yes, we are estranged from the womb at birth until we are born again.
.

 

[Cooper]

I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
My post was to rogerg
I do want to say that Calvin was not "just" a teacher.
He was one of the main characters in starting a new religion that began in 1,500AD.

This religion was not known before then.
They had come from a Christian faith and so they continued to believe they were Christian.
However, the ideas they had were heretical.
I'm referring to Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wittenberg and Zwingli and others.

I was meaning we should follow the teaching of Jesus and not make a religion from the words of men, like those in your list.
.

 

[rogerg]

That is a new one to me, but then in the sight of God, we are all sinners from birth, and we have always known that, so nothing new there. I cannot remember the text, but while ever we belong to Satan he leaves us alone until we turn to Christ, and then he turns his spleen on those who belong to the Saviour.

Hi Cooper,
I am not familiar with any such text and would be interested to see it. As you might know,
(and if I've understood you correctly), I do not believe that "we turn to Christ", I believe
it is He who has chosen us. Christ is the Saviour, we are not - before that, we are spiritually lost.

 

[Cooper]

Hi Cooper,
I am not familiar with any such text and would be interested to see it. As you might know,
(and if I've understood you correctly), I do not believe that "we turn to Christ", I believe
it is He who has chosen us. Christ is the Saviour, we are not - before that, we are spiritually lost.

There are these, below, however Satan is not going to persecute his own is he, instead the wicked grow rich and prosper with their wicked ways.

2Pe 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Pe 3:17-18 Ye, therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
.

 

[Cooper]

Hi Cooper,
I am not familiar with any such text and would be interested to see it. As you might know,
(and if I've understood you correctly), I do not believe that "we turn to Christ", I believe
it is He who has chosen us. Christ is the Saviour, we are not - before that, we are spiritually lost.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
(Isa 45:22 KJV)

Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. (Mic 7:7 KJV)

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zec 12:10 KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:16-18 KJV)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:40 KJV)
.

 

[rogerg]

There are these, below, however Satan is not going to persecute his own is he, instead the wicked grow rich and prosper with their wicked ways.

2Pe 2:1-2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Pe 3:17-18 Ye, therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
.

Thanks, Cooper for providing those verses and I will ponder them further. I guess I was thinking about
Satan's wrath being manifested primarily by his blinding of humanity which blinding happens from birth, but you do raise a good point: that when someone becomes born-again and becomes vocal about the gospel, because of it, they start to experience bad things from him - things that they hadn't undergone prior to that - so thanks again.