CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[2nd Timothy Group]

God is no respecter of persons. All are welcome, sins forgiven free.
.

?

Have a great day, Coops!

 

[Randy]

Absolutely, for this is precisely what the Bible proclaims. Perhaps the NLT is wrong?

Acts 13:48 NLT - "When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers."

Romans 8:29-30 NLT - "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory."

Ephesians 1:4-5 NLT - "Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure."

Ephesians 1:9-12 NLT - "God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God's purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God."

1 Peter 1:1-2 NIV - "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance."

What I see is those IN CHRIST that Jesus is speaking of.
Correct Jesus does not drive us away.
Remain in me -those in Him who are fruitful will be pruned by the Father to be more fruitful.
Remain in me -those in Him who are not fruitful will be cut out of the true vine. Such branches wither and are thrown into the Fire.
Remain in me and I will remain in you.

They are in Him and Jesus has forgiven their sins. They are warned to remain in Him. Why would the Father need to cut off someone who is not in Christ?

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Who do you think Jesus spoke the word to in regard to the cleansing of their sins? Those that accepted Him or those that rejected Him? And why would Jesus need to tell those who rejected Him to remain IN HIM?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

What I see is those IN CHRIST that Jesus is speaking of.
Correct Jesus does not drive us away.
Remain in me -those in Him who are fruitful will be pruned by the Father to be more fruitful.
Remain in me -those in Him who are not fruitful will be cut out of the true vine. Such branches wither and are thrown into the Fire.
Remain in me and I will remain in you.

They are in Him and Jesus has forgiven their sins. They are warned to remain in Him. Why would the Father need to cut off someone who is not in Christ?

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Who do you think Jesus spoke the word to in regard to the cleansing of their sins? Those that accepted Him or those that rejected Him? And why would Jesus need to tell those who rejected Him to remain IN HIM?

You make great points, Randy! And, I can totally see where you are coming from and why you believe what you believe. In fact, it is difficult to deny what you're saying above.

And this is why I will never be a pastor. This is why, when I begin teaching the Bible in weekly group meetings (soon), I will not be teachings in the way of "Thus sayeth the Lord!" I can't stand that kind of mentality, for it seems so arrogant and dogmatic (to me). Instead, I will be teaching as an equal, showing the group differing ideas and beliefs that are found in Scripture. It is True, which is that so much of Scripture seems to contradict itself, and what we are discussing certainly seems to contradict. But as we work through the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order, we will discover the Mysterious Plan of God, and it is my goal that we would all come to somehow agree on what the Scriptures are teaching. This means, that with the help of my own study group, I may change the way I think about and believe the Bible.

Having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I am likely always going to lean towards a God who completes the Good Work that He has put into me.

Philippians 1:3-6 NKJV - "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ . . ."

Hebrews 13:20-21 NKJV - "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

I know that you embrace the above Scriptures too. Isn't the Bible often a serious conundrum to try and figure out?

David

 

[Randy]

And Solomon?
.

Solomon apparently was a slave to the his flesh. He took hundreds of foreign wives and concubines who lead him to make alters to foreign Gods. He did evil in the Lords eyes so God ripped the kingdom away but after his death for the sake of David. 10 tribes went to Jeroboam. But 2 tribes were kept and went to Solomons son Rehoboam because God remembered David who God proclaimed had been faithful to Him.

Jesus stated all who sin are a slave to sin unless the Son sets them free. Jesus doesn't cover sin He removes sin. And in Christ is no sin. The one in us is greater than the one in the world and helps us put down the desires of the flesh. Solomon could not have had this blessing nor worshipped God in the new way of the Spirit for Solomon existed before Jesus introduced the new covenant in His blood. At Jesus's last breath the vail that separates the Holy place from the Holy of Holies was torn in two. Showing access to God by the blood of Christ. Solomon would not have that in his day.

 

[Randy]

You make great points, Randy! And, I can totally see where you are coming from and why you believe what you believe. In fact, it is difficult to deny what you're saying above.

And this is why I will never be a pastor. This is why, when I begin teaching the Bible in weekly group meetings (soon), I will not be teachings in the way of "Thus sayeth the Lord!" I can't stand that kind of mentality, for it seems so arrogant and dogmatic (to me). Instead, I will be teaching as an equal, showing the group differing ideas and beliefs that are found in Scripture. It is True, which is that so much of Scripture seems to contradict itself, and what we are discussing certainly seems to contradict. But as we work through the entire Bible in a timeline, chronological order, we will discover the Mysterious Plan of God, and it is my goal that we would all come to somehow agree on what the Scriptures are teaching. This means, that with the help of my own study group, I may change the way I think about and believe the Bible.

Having felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God, I am likely always going to lean towards a God who completes the Good Work that He has put into me.

Philippians 1:3-6 NKJV - "I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ . . ."

Hebrews 13:20-21 NKJV - "Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

I know that you embrace the above Scriptures too. Isn't the Bible often a serious conundrum to try and figure out?

David

It's why I state I find it highly unlikely that those born again will ever fall away but won't state "never". Don't underestimate yourself as God doesn't need elegance He desires faithfulness and obedience which will let Him work His grace through you by His Spirit and abilities. As Jesus stated along these lines you can ask anything in His name and He will do it so as to bring glory to His Father.

 

[Cooper]

2nd Timothy and Randy, make one error.

They consider that stating, and teaching, in the name of Christ ( here on the forum and elsewhere as said too) means they are showing themselves true believers in Jesus Christ.

That in fact proves the very opposite. It shows disregard and disbelief in what true belief in Jesus Christ is.

The world has many religions, all with their gods, who speak this thing or that, making many claims, and the world fooled by just that.

The one difference of Jesus Christ is laying His life down for all, because all need to know without this love of God, there is only talk, vanity and nothing else. So seeing as the world is easily deceived by other religions, why does someone who labels themselves as a Christian think they can show Jesus Christ as the same as those gods, ( who are no gods) by reducing Christ to their own selfish ways, to only show love in word, and not in deed at all.

If there was any shame, they would be terrified to be likened to the end times prophecies, of men speaking great swelling words of vanity, but instead, here they are daily and non stop for many years. ( as also predicted they foam out their shame/they have no shame)

But their folly is manifested as God said it will be, because love is in deed then in truth, what truth do they think they show, when actually they are denying the power of Christ( who loved in deed to lay His life down and we are to do the same, not speak and dispute daily for the purpose of self, and nothing for others ( nobody needs your teaching and statements.)


2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.





2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This has worried me for a long time. When several people argue about a single verse, each with their own, but different understanding, the real meaning gets lost amid all the arguments based mainly, on the teaching of their particular church. And we know how many divisions there are in the churches across America alone.
.

 

[Randy]

2nd Timothy and Randy, make one error.

They consider that stating, and teaching, in the name of Christ ( here on the forum and elsewhere as said too) means they are showing themselves true believers in Jesus Christ.

That in fact proves the very opposite. It shows disregard and disbelief in what true belief in Jesus Christ is.

The world has many religions, all with their gods, who speak this thing or that, making many claims, and the world fooled by just that.

The one difference of Jesus Christ is laying His life down for all, because all need to know without this love of God, there is only talk, vanity and nothing else. So seeing as the world is easily deceived by other religions, why does someone who labels themselves as a Christian think they can show Jesus Christ as the same as those gods, ( who are no gods) by reducing Christ to their own selfish ways, to only show love in word, and not in deed at all.

If there was any shame, they would be terrified to be likened to the end times prophecies, of men speaking great swelling words of vanity, but instead, here they are daily and non stop for many years. ( as also predicted they foam out their shame/they have no shame)

But their folly is manifested as God said it will be, because love is in deed then in truth, what truth do they think they show, when actually they are denying the power of Christ( who loved in deed to lay His life down and we are to do the same, not speak and dispute daily for the purpose of self, and nothing for others ( nobody needs your teaching and statements.)


2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.





2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I can't tell if you are serious or just a troll. You posted some serious accusations against me but noting in regard to the subject matter of the thread. So present your case what specifically was stated that shows I entice people into immorality, deny Christ and was disobedient to my parents. That I am a slave to sin, unholy, foaming out shame that darkness blackness has been reserved for me?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

the real meaning gets lost amid all the arguments based mainly, on the teaching of their particular church.

And that is the problem. People instantly go with what their particular church teaches instead of just letting the scriptures speak for themselves. Many churches add special interpretations to the scriptures, but if a person has their own relationship with the scriptures they can spot what denominations are doing that. The two main problems are the church is a business, and those in leadership think they are not allowed to ever be wrong and have to be right all the time for fear their calling and authority will be suspect.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

People instantly go with what their particular church teaches

Since Randy and myself are the current topic, I'll address this fodder.

I don't attend a modern-day "church."

 

[Niblo]

Well, this is one way to make enemies with Christians. Good work. One error that I [won't] make is to be offended by you. If I did that, I would Truly be a fool!

Very well said.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do I really have to be specific and explain I'm speaking generally?

Christians, IN GENERAL, have a lack of Biblical knowledge because of a lack of reading the Bible for themselves. Christians, IN GENERAL, are not Bereans. And those in leadership are educated in their particular church's theology, not the Bible. They are told how to understand and interpret a particular verse or passage of scripture. They rarely have their own insights. And even if they do they are paid to represent their particular denominations view, not theirs. And as long as being in the ministry is a business it will remain this way...no...get worse, all the way to the end.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since Randy and myself are the current topic, I'll address this fodder.

Can't you see you're contributing to the problem?

You don't have to agree with what I say, but you do have to respect me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christians, IN GENERAL, have a lack of Biblical knowledge because of a lack of reading the Bible for themselves.

Timothy, do you know what that means? It doesn't just mean literally reading the words of the Bible. It means being illuminated through your own diligent and thoughtful examination of the scriptures. One can only do that if they are willing to read the Bible with the courage to question what they've heard a certain verse or passage of scripture means when they can see for themselves that the Bible doesn't say what they've been told it says. Nobody in the church, even the leadership, and especially writers of commentaries, are above scrutiny.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Timothy, do you know what that means? It doesn't just mean literally reading the words of the Bible. It means being illuminated through your own diligent and thoughtful examination of the scriptures. One can only do that if they are willing to read the Bible with the courage to question what they've heard a certain verse or passage of scripture means when they can see for themselves that the Bible doesn't say what they've been told it says. Nobody in the church, even the leadership, and especially writers of commentaries, are above scrutiny.

Right back atchya, Jethro.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right back atchya, Jethro.

How do you think I know to do this, lol? It's because I have been doing it.

You're up. Expound on 1 Corinthians 15:1-2...

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

We're on topic here. And I will use this topic to show you what I'm talking about. Let's see how honest of a Bible reader you are, but more importantly how willing you are to admit you just might be wrong.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm ex-Air Force. I know what fodder is and what it means.

It seems that you have your own definition of fodder. :yes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see. So you enjoy playing games. Good to know.

See ya!

No games here, bud. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 is right on topic. Dead on. So get your little hindy back here and show us what this passage means in light of the OP.

I'm not trying to destroy you. I'm trying to make you a better teacher. Good teachers are honest teachers. Willing to listen. Willing to be corrected if necessary. Willing to sharpen and fine tune their theology. I will show you that you can't just decide this passage is a proof text for your theology. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Chances are you've only looked at it one way...YOUR way. And a way that has been influenced by sources outside of, and potentially alien to the Bible. Let's talk.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are unable to control yourself, I will have to place you on my Ignore list. I only tell you this so that when I discontinue speaking with you, you will understand why. That seems to be the fair thing to do.

So, are you going to stop or not?

Settle down, and just address 1 Corinthians 15:1-2...or I really will sic Ralph on you. Me and him are like...uh...<insert emoji of a person's crossed fingers here>.

And you know, if this gets out of hand we go to the quarter toss, lol.

 

[Hopeful]

... just address 1 Corinthians 15:1-2....

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)
The verses seemed pretty self-explanatory to me.
What is to be addressed?
---The gospel we have received will save us if we hold fast to it.---

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)
The verses seemed pretty self-explanatory to me.
What is to be addressed?
---The gospel we have received will save us if we hold fast to it.---

People who say true believers can never fall away read it as saved people never fall away unless they were never really true believers to begin with.

But I'm with you. I see it saying you're saved as long as you keep believing what you heard in the beginning. John says the same thing.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

That's why I say the whole thing boils down to whether or not a true believer can ever stop believing. Reformed theology says they always will, or else they were never true believers to begin with. Non-reformed theology says you remain a saved person in Christ as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you.