CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Hopeful]

People who say true believers can never fall away read it as saved people never fall away unless they were never really true believers to begin with.

That "saying" does make sense.
Folks can fake real belief to impress others for only so long.
With 1 John 3:9 in mind, and a belief that an apple seed cannot bring forth onions...or any other thing but the fruit of the apple seed, I see no way for God's seed to return to bringing forth the devil's fruit.

But I'm with you. I see it saying you're saved as long as you keep believing what you heard in the beginning. John says the same thing.
1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

That's why I say the whole thing boils down to whether or not a true believer can ever stop believing. Reformed theology says they always will, or else they were never true believers to begin with. Non-reformed theology says you remain a saved person in Christ as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you.

That is the difference between "belief" and "true belief".

 

[Cooper]

People who say true believers can never fall away read it as saved people never fall away unless they were never really true believers to begin with.

But I'm with you. I see it saying you're saved as long as you keep believing what you heard in the beginning. John says the same thing.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

That's why I say the whole thing boils down to whether or not a true believer can ever stop believing. Reformed theology says they always will, or else they were never true believers to begin with. Non-reformed theology says you remain a saved person in Christ as long as what you heard in the beginning remains in you.

And if what we heard in the beginning does not remain in us. What then?
.

 

[Hopeful]

This is absolutely brilliant! I'll be giving you credit for these notes that I'm about to take. I've never heard of this teaching before.

The credit goes to the Spirit of the living God.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

With 1 John 3:9 in mind, and a belief that an apple seed cannot bring forth onions...or any other thing but the fruit of the apple seed, I see no way for God's seed to return to bringing forth the devil's fruit.

John just got done saying in the previous chapter to let the word (the seed) remain in you.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you.

So the seed remains in the one who continues to believe. And so we're back to the question of whether or not a true believer can stop believing or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if what we heard in the beginning does not remain in us. What then?
.

Then you will not remain in the Son and in the Father and you won't have the promise of eternal life.

1 John 2:24-25
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

 

[Cooper]

Then you will not remain in the Son and in the Father and you won't have the promise of eternal life.

1 John 2:24-25
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

The atheist would say, "so what, I shall rot in the grave the same as you, and that will be the end."
How would you reply?
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The atheist would say, "so what, I shall rot in the grave the same as you, and that will be the end."
How would you reply?
.

I would explain to them the resurrection of the dead.

Daniel 12:2
2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:15
15...there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Cooper]

I would explain to them the resurrection of the dead.

Daniel 12:2
2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 24:15
15...there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

That is a good answer.
.

 

[Cooper]

So, someone who commits their life to Jesus, remaining in Him and He in them is assured of eternal life.
Can we make that commitment to God from the foundation of the earth, or even before we are born?
.

 

[gordon777]

I can't tell if you are serious or just a troll. You posted some serious accusations against me but noting in regard to the subject matter of the thread. So present your case what specifically was stated that shows I entice people into immorality, deny Christ and was disobedient to my parents. That I am a slave to sin, unholy, foaming out shame that darkness blackness has been reserved for me?

You are showing nothing for people to not be immoral, as it ids stated, they ( unbelieving) profess ( pretend) that they believe in God, ( show words, debates, disputes only) but unto every good work they are reprobates. ( they talk and talk and have no time for good works)


Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, someone who commits their life to Jesus, remaining in Him and He in them is assured of eternal life.

That is what the scriptures say.

Can we make that commitment to God from the foundation of the earth, or even before we are born?
.

No.
Reformed doctrine says that decision is made for you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you on the forum then just to have a nice time, sharing words, stories, for entertainment ?

That is a wide path many are on, enjoy it.

I suppose most of us with more than just a passing interest in theology, including myself, think we have to be Elijah on Mt. Carmel all the time but that's just not true. It's quite a turn off, actually. There is a time and a place for that, for some. Meanwhile, we should just be who we are growing up into Christ, enjoying the fellowship of the brethren in casual, but sometimes serious discussion. Laugh a little!

 

[gordon777]

That is what the scriptures say.


No.
Reformed doctrine says that decision is made for you.

Except that they show with this discussion, they do not acknowledger that eternal life is Jesus Christ, it is not life they have that lasts for ever, it is knowing God. There is a vital difference, one is a self seeking way and self interest, another is love for God as your interest/knowledge, instead.




John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[gordon777]

There is a time and a place for that, for some. Meanwhile, we should just be who we are growing up into Christ, enjoying the fellowship of the brethren in casual, but sometimes serious discussion. Laugh a little!

See the example of Christ, and you are rebuked, and if this isn't enough, it soon will be, I am quite certain.



Psalm 69:26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29 But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.




The same advise of Christ ( man of sorrows) for us:




Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you really think the Spirit of Christ is guiding you to say an apple cant bring forth an onion ?

God is the good seed, and yet God brings forth evil. ( creates good and evil. Isaiah 45:7.)

The seed in the context of what we're talking about here is the word of God. It will never produce weeds. Nor does it have to always be in the soil it which it is planted. So whatever ungodly growth may be occurring in a person is not because of the word of God in a person, but rather because of the casting out of the word in unbelief, or the choking out of that word by the cares of this world.

 

[gordon777]

The seed in the context of what we're talking about here is the word of God. It will never produce weeds. Nor does it have to always be in the soil it which it is planted. So whatever ungodly growth may be occurring in a person is not because of the word of God in a person, but rather the absence of that word, or the choking out of that word.

false, whosoever exalts themselves will be abased, and they who humble themselves will be exalted.



Luke 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



Everybody who does not take heed to not fall, is fallen already.


Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[GodsGrace]

The atheist would say, "so what, I shall rot in the grave the same as you, and that will be the end."
How would you reply?
.

I'd add to Jethro Bodine 's reply:

John 5:28-29
26The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son.
27And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.
28Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

It shows that the life is in the Father and in the Son.
One day we will all be judged,
Those who have done good will experience eternal life.
Those who have continued in evil will experience judgement.

( some versions say: committed evil deeds).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now for all you debaters and disputers, your talk saying you are a Christian, is as far from being one that can be.


If anyone would control their tongue ( their texting) they might show they have a little belief in Jesus Christ, and instead I challenge you, that you cant avoid the wrath of God. ( by simply being slow to speak, slow to wrath you would succeed.)



Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Romans 15:1
1We who are strong ought to bear with the shortcomings of the weak...

 

[gordon777]

The seed in the context of what we're talking about here is the word of God. It will never produce weeds. Nor does it have to always be in the soil it which it is planted. So whatever ungodly growth may be occurring in a person is not because of the word of God in a person, but rather because of the casting out of the word in unbelief, or the choking out of that word by the cares of this world.

God is the Word, God said be, and it was. God did produce weeds, ( He created all)


Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.



If a person is in darkness it is because there is no light in them, but God created light and darkness..




Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.



The light, is the light of men, but men prefer darkness. Also they put darkness for light..




Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.



A lot of Gods words describing things there, what words of your own are you going to ignore them with, and show the preference is darkness, not light ( own words and reasoning chosen as superior to Gods words that give is light and life)