CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Randy]

And this.

24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you.

Yes, indeed. I'm free will and it won't change unless the Lord informs me otherwise and I can read about His free will while Jesus submitted His will in favor of His Fathers will in the garden. Its clear to me the cause was His great love for His Father. Obedience follows love. If one loves Jesus they will obey Him showing the world to be His disciples.

Not only do I NOT believe in prechosen but I believe one should "humble" themselves before God in seeking their salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's fine. It was stated that Jesus never said that He will remain in people. I was just showing the obvious, which is that He in fact did say it, just as wondering acknowledged.

Have a great day, Niblo!

The above is incredibly dishonest of you.
Not only have you broken TOS rules, but you went ahead and used my post INCORRECTLY by leaving out everything except one sentence to show another poster that I agree with your belief about a particular verse.

This is not acceptable.

And I'm tagging in Niblo and Cooper and Randy and Jethro Bodine, Hopeful, rogerg
and I hope anyone else on this thread sees this.

PLEASE NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Obedience follows love.

Ahhh....but the Bible tells me that obedience is the result of being chosen and Enabled by the Lord. Because the human "free will" cannot choose a new spirit and heart, they must be granted by God with the result of behaving according to the Lord's precepts. Below, note the phrase "so that." This phrase is telling us that the purpose of this incredible Work below has a purpose, and the purpose of this Righteous and Holy act from God is to cause us to "Walk" and obey according to the laws and precepts of God.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

If we know our Bibles, this text is later and further defined in Colossians 2:9-15. Those passages are as follows:

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

 

[rogerg]

As long as Christ is in me. That requires faithfulness and obedience on my part. I am free will so unless you believe God has bound your will or compelled you against your will then "your" will is involved in this union.
Hence - "remain in me" No branch apart from the vine bears fruit by itself. It needs to remain in the vine.

No, not bound nor compelled, but instead, changed, changed by God.

This is a description from God's point of view regarding the heart of and hence the will of natural man, the will that you say is not compelled by God to be in union with Him but instead does so by its own free will. However, we are informed in the below that the heart of the unsaved, natural man is filled with evil and with madness leading it.
How then is there truly free will, and how can it choose God?

[Ecc 9:3 KJV]
3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

When someone becomes born again by/from salvation, and as a part of it, their will is changed by God.

[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[2Ti 1:7 KJV]
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

[Cooper]

No, not bound nor compelled, but instead, changed, changed by God.

This is a description from God's point of view regarding the heart of and hence the will of natural man, the will that you say is not compelled by God to be in union with Him but instead does so by its own free will. However, we are informed in the below that the heart of the unsaved, natural man is filled with evil and with madness leading it.
How then is there truly free will, and how can it choose God?

[Ecc 9:3 KJV]
3 This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead.

[Jer 17:9 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

When someone becomes born again by/from salvation, and as a part of it, their will is changed by God.

[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[2Ti 1:7 KJV]
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Despite the hardness of heart God will speak to those with ears to hear. He spoke to Samuel in the temple and :-

18 Bible verses about God And The Heart

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

.

 

[rogerg]

Despite the hardness of heart God will speak to those with ears to hear. He spoke to Samuel in the temple and :-

First, God saves, and from/by that He gives ears to hear. They who have become born again hear, not everyone does nor can.

 

[rogerg]

Despite the hardness of heart God will speak to those with ears to hear. He spoke to Samuel in the temple and :-

18 Bible verses about God And The Heart

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

.

Ears that hear have been blessed by God to be able to hear; that is, the person has become saved.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

 

[GodsGrace]

First, God saves, and from/by that He gives ears to hear. They who have become born again hear, not everyone does nor can.

Is this what Jesus meant?


Matthew 11:11-15
11“I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he is!
12And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it.
13For before John came, all the prophets and the law of Moses looked forward to this present time.
14And if you are willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come.
15Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!


Jesus said:
IF we are WILLING TO ACCEPT what He said,
Willingness to accept denotes free will.

All of calvinism hinges on not having free will.
All of TULIP hinges on not having free will.

Yet Jesus speaks of our WILLINGNESS to accept what He says
AND we should listen and understand.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ears that hear have been blessed by God to be able to hear; that is, the person has become saved.

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13:16 does not support your view.
It's descriptive, as YOU would say.

What you need to do is show a verse that supports your contention
that we are saved FIRST,
and THEN we believe.

 

[GodsGrace]

First, God saves, and from/by that He gives ears to hear. They who have become born again hear, not everyone does nor can.

Romans 10:17
17So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

In order:
1. HEARING the good news about Christ.
2. FAITH

That's simple grammar.
Could you show that it's the opposite?

 

[Hopeful]

I don't think there is any one DENOMINATION that has the whole complete truth. Individually, believers will grow up into the knowledge of the truth as long as they aren't stuck in the rut of an organization's official doctrinal creed and are reading and discerning the Bible for themselves through the Holy Spirit's guidance.

You have a low opinion of the power of God, who still has a church on earth.
God will not leave the truly seeking to themselves or to the polluted.

Christians in general are not Bereans. If and when a Christian reads his Bible chances are he's automatically going to understand everything he reads the way his particular church understands it. Your church is going to have some things right, and other things not so right. You have to have an open mind and put your denominational presuppositions on the sidelines when reading the Bible for John 8:32 to be fulfilled in your life.

As good as it is to be really doubtful upon attending a new or different "church's" building, without a belief that the real church still exists you will never recognize it when you see it.
Didn't Jesus say..."Seek and you will find."...? (Matt 7:7-8)
Truer word were never uttered.

 

[Hopeful]

That's not what I'm addressing. I'm saying church organizations are where the truth ball is being dropped. I'm convinced you will not learn the whole truth by being locked away in the indoctrination of any one denomination's official beliefs.

Start your own "church", so you have everything God gives, without the polluted teachings of the "denominations".
So, what is the truth?

 

[Hopeful]

And that home where corruption resides is the denominational constructs of men.

"Man" and "corruption" go hand in hand.
Look for the church were the "men" have crucified the flesh with the vile affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
There you will find children of God who are far more than mere men.

Yes, the INDIVIDUAL can know the whole truth, of what truth is available to be known. But only if he is a Berean and does not restrict his personal theological construct to the theological construct of the church he's attending.

Do you believe there are now any like the Bereans?

Maybe. Depends on where we're at in our growth into the knowledge of God. A baby, still sucking the milk knowledge of the basic gospel message is not going to be a clearinghouse of truth, yet. And he never will be if he never gets off the milk message of Christianity, and if he restricts his discernment to that of what his particular denomination has told him is the one and only proper discernment of scripture.

If a "baby" is reborn of God, all it lacks is grace and knowledge to be just as Paul, James, or John were.
The new heart/mind will be able to filter bad from good in every part of his new life.
He certainly won't be bringing forth the fruit of his past father, the devil.

 

[Hopeful]

As long as Christ is in me. That requires faithfulness and obedience on my part. I am free will so unless you believe God has bound your will or compelled you against your will then "your" will is involved in this union.
Hence - "remain in me" No branch apart from the vine bears fruit by itself. It needs to remain in the vine.

My "will" is absolutely involved.
If I didn't want to cease from sin and serve Jesus, I never would have sought Him out.
And He is not hard to find.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

This should interest you Jethro on another thread by which I mean, it is the loss faith in God that causes people to backslide.
.

I call that a lack of faith, not a loss of faith.

 

[Hopeful]

No, that would make salvation a work of the recipient instead of Christ.
All Christian attributes flow from, and are because of, salvation. They are not to salvation.
Christ is the Saviour in all ways, we are not.

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Nobody is going to repent of sin for you.
YOU MUST DO IT.
The works Paul wrote against were the works of the Mosaic Law.
Specifically; circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping feast keeping, tithing, etc.

You are so afraid of "doing anything" that you won't do anything.
I call that "false doctrine paralysis".
And it is of the devil.

 

[rogerg]

Nobody is going to repent of sin for you.
YOU MUST DO IT.
The works Paul wrote against were the works of the Mosaic Law.
Specifically; circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping feast keeping, tithing, etc.

You are so afraid of "doing anything" that you won't do anything.
I call that "false doctrine paralysis".
And it is of the devil.

Huh? No, I don't think you are correct.
Repentance is to cease from trusting in our dead works and to instead trust completely in Christ as Saviour (alone) for salvation. Further, repentance is received as a gift in becoming born again - God's work not ours.
Wat me afraid? Why yes, in fact, I most definitely am afraid, very afraid indeed and rightfully so. Why? Because for me to believe I must do something, anything, regarding my salvation would be to place me in direct contravention to the Gospel and to Christ as Saviour which in effect would be calling God a liar - not a very smart thing to do.
So, yes, I do nothing whatsoever regarding my salvation but to rest in Christ and in His finished work.

Now a few questions for you: why are you unable to accept the proposition that Christ is the Saviour, and as Saviour,
that He alone who must be the one to save, and save completely? If He is not that, then what do you perceive the role of a Saviour is?


[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Tit 3:5, 6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[Hopeful]

Huh? No, I don't think you are correct.
Repentance is to cease from trusting in our dead works and to instead trust completely in Christ as Saviour (alone) for salvation.

That would be repentance on counting on the OT Law for salvation.
We are told to repent of sin.

Further, repentance is received as a gift in becoming born again - God's work not ours.
Wat me afraid? Why yes, in fact, I most definitely am afraid, very afraid indeed and rightfully so. Why? Because for me to believe I must do something, anything, regarding my salvation would be to place me in direct contravention to the Gospel and to Christ as Saviour which in effect would be calling God a liar - not a very smart thing to do.
So, yes, I do nothing whatsoever regarding my salvation but to rest in Christ and in His finished work.

Now a few questions for you: why are you unable to accept the proposition that Christ is the Saviour, and as Saviour,
that He alone who must be the one to save, and save completely? If He is not that, then what do you perceive the role of a Saviour is?


[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

[Tit 3:5, 6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

If you don't repent of sin, you are still a sinner.
No sinners will be found in the book of life on the last day's judgement.
Sinners are still dead in trespasses and sins.

 

[rogerg]

That would be repentance on counting on the OT Law for salvation.
We are told to repent of sin.

Nope. It is for counting on anything that anyone may try to do for salvation.
Not trusting in Christ is sin.

f you don't repent of sin, you are still a sinner.
No sinners will be found in the book of life on the last day's judgement.
Sinners are still dead in trespasses and sins.

Just the opposite, in fact. The names that God who wrote into the book from
the foundation of the world, are they, and they alone, who do become saved,
no one else does.

You didn't answer my question about the Saviour.
So, a logical deduction would be that you either don't believe that
Christ is the Saviour, or you believe the Saviour doesn't save.
Which is it, or is it both?

 

[Randy]

Ahhh....but the Bible tells me that obedience is the result of being chosen and Enabled by the Lord. Because the human "free will" cannot choose a new spirit and heart, they must be granted by God with the result of behaving according to the Lord's precepts. Below, note the phrase "so that." This phrase is telling us that the purpose of this incredible Work below has a purpose, and the purpose of this Righteous and Holy act from God is to cause us to "Walk" and obey according to the laws and precepts of God.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

If we know our Bibles, this text is later and further defined in Colossians 2:9-15. Those passages are as follows:

Colossians 2:9-15 NLT - "For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. 15 In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.