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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

rogerg said:
Those who are saved are saved by what Christ accomplished, not by physical linage.


Then it can't be because they are of Israel, otherwise, all of the Jews must be saved yet they won't be.
God chose the offspring of Jacob for the exact purpose of demonstrating that they are not
saved because they are of the earthly Israel, but because they are of the spiritual seed of Jacob.



The offspring of Jacob regarding salvation, are his spiritual not his physical offspring.

[Rom 9:8 KJV]
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Galatians were not Jews, yet Paul directly ties them to Isaac and Abraham, and declares them children of the promise. Again, it was directed to the Galatians not to physical Jews or Israel.

[Gal 4:28 KJV]
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Yes, in fact, God did have to reserve to Himself all (Jew and gentile) whom He had planned to save. That was God's promise. No one besides those of His promise can be saved whether Jew or Gentile. That is, only those of the promise can/do call upon the name of the Lord but only because they had been saved. The "saved" of your post (above) is the completion of salvation which occurs at the end of time in the full manifestation of the inheritance.

[1Co 15:50 KJV]
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Click to expand...

According to you people are prechosen to be saved. No matter what they desire. What we know is that the Sons of faith are Abrahams children and in Christ are heirs according to the promise and serve God in the new way of the Spirit not the old way of the written code. I know Jesus and He knows me if I were chosen by God to be in Him before I was born He would have told me.

Anyone whether Jew or Gentile as reckoned in the days of the Son of Man would have to be blessed by faith through Him. Those who died before Christ entered the world would have to be raised up by Jesus as well as He gathers from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. So they to would be saved through Him. It was by Gods intent He introduced the new covenant to Israel first.

But linage is there in scripture.
The land allotment in scripture per "tribe" suggests linage promised inheritances by God.

These follow/belong to Jesus are cataloged by linage. Its still noted by God even to those in Christ.
saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads."
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:sadJacob)
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.


We know those cut off of Christ was because of unbelief.
Is it implied that the children of Jacob were the elect because of Gods promise and not all Israel and so they are those out of Israel who believed in Christ Jesus. Other than the many nations blessed through Abraham the man of faith such promises are not found in regard to the gentiles.

If God is inviting the many how can He also be cursing them to remain in unbelief and perish. That's not a invite.
 
Randy said:
According to you people are prechosen to be saved. No matter what they desire. What we know is that the Sons of faith are Abrahams children and in Christ are heirs according to the promise and serve God in the new way of the Spirit not the old way of the written code. I know Jesus and He knows me if I were chosen by God to be in Him before I was born He would have told me.

Anyone whether Jew or Gentile as reckoned in the days of the Son of Man would have to be blessed by faith through Him. Those who died before Christ entered the world would have to be raised up by Jesus as well as He gathers from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. So they to would be saved through Him. It was by Gods intent He introduced the new covenant to Israel first.

But linage is there in scripture.
The land allotment in scripture per "tribe" suggests linage promised inheritances by God.

These follow/belong to Jesus are cataloged by linage. Its still noted by God even to those in Christ.
saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of God on their foreheads."
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:sadJacob)
12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.


We know those cut off of Christ was because of unbelief.
Is it implied that the children of Jacob were the elect because of Gods promise and not all Israel and so they are those out of Israel who believed in Christ Jesus. Other than the many nations blessed through Abraham the man of faith such promises are not found in regard to the gentiles.

If God is inviting the many how can He also be cursing them to remain in unbelief and perish. That's not a invite.
Click to expand...
I think we've entered the "we're in a loop" point, so I don't see much benefit in us continuing this. Agree?
 
wondering said:
Hi Vinny
Could you please explain the levels and also what the Latin means?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Sorry for delay - just revisiting. I divide salvation history into four levels: general unredeemed humanity; Sinai; Yeshua; Eternity to come. "Israel's Gone Global" (2018), covers that framework. The Latin ('most essential') is easily found on the internet.
 
rogerg said:
[2Co 11:3 KJV] 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Click to expand...
2 Cor.11:3 is not about biblical knowledge being ‘simple’ as in Sunday-schoolish, but about believers being sincerely devoted (haplotēs) to messiah. Tyndale used the term [singlenes], and we speak of single-minded devotion, etc; the KJV followed the Geneva/Douay-Rheims on this. The NIV has: …I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
 
for_his_glory said:
I have reopened this thread after deleting many posts for being off topic and violations against the ToS. Please keep on topic and no more derogatory remarks made against each other. If this continues the violators will be banned from this thread. No need to reply to this.
Click to expand...
Fair points, although please note that you misquote Joshua. The text should be either God's name as a name (eg Yahweh), or at least Tyndale's alternate method, [the LORD]. Copy/paste removes small caps, further detetragrammatising God's name and inclining to Sabellianism, and adding wince value.
 
Vinny37 said:
Sorry for delay - just revisiting. I divide salvation history into four levels: general unredeemed humanity; Sinai; Yeshua; Eternity to come. "Israel's Gone Global" (2018), covers that framework. The Latin ('most essential') is easily found on the internet.
Click to expand...
Hi Vinny
It's nice to have you back.
I doubt I'll be reading any such books anymore.
Can't concentrate. 🙁
Could you explain more?
I've never encountered these 4 levels.
I believe salvation history has always been the same.
 
Vinny37 said:
Fair points, although please note that you misquote Joshua. The text should be either God's name as a name (eg Yahweh), or at least Tyndale's alternate method, [the LORD]. Copy/paste removes small caps, further detetragrammatising God's name and inclining to Sabellianism, and adding wince value.
Click to expand...
It's really difficult to understand the Trinity.
I find that no matter how I try to explain it, I often end up on heretical ground.
 
Vinny37 said:
2 Cor.11:3 is not about biblical knowledge being ‘simple’ as in Sunday-schoolish, but about believers being sincerely devoted (haplotēs) to messiah. Tyndale used the term [singlenes], and we speak of single-minded devotion, etc; the KJV followed the Geneva/Douay-Rheims on this. The NIV has: …I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Click to expand...

The simplicity is this: That Christ alone is the Saviour - it is He alone who saves.
 
rogerg said:
The simplicity is this: That Christ alone is the Saviour - it is He alone who saves.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's what the other poster is saying,
Could you please read it again.

As you know, I believe the reformed belief system is incorrect in every way.

It must believe in the perseverance of the saints.
If that falls, it all falls.

It must believe we do not have free will.
If that falls, it all falls.
 
wondering said:
As you know, I believe the reformed belief system is incorrect in every way.
Click to expand...
Not EVERY way.

The reformed movement is why we're not all Catholic and think that a person is credited God's righteousness (justified) in return for doing righteous things, but rather by having faith in the blood of Christ, all by itself. But don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Reformed theology either, lol.
 
rogerg said:
The simplicity is this: That Christ alone is the Saviour - it is He alone who saves.
Click to expand...
If we say that, we exclude the father, the spirit, and the noncarnate son. The biblical context of Paul's text was not about a Sunday School Bible/Theology.
 
wondering said:
Hi Vinny
It's nice to have you back.
I doubt I'll be reading any such books anymore.
Can't concentrate. 🙁
Could you explain more?
I've never encountered these 4 levels.
I believe salvation history has always been the same.
Click to expand...
Rather too long to explain (and justify) in such a forum. It can be illustrated in many ways. Here's something I wrote a day or so ago: [The term ‘Immanuel’, from Is.7:14, was nothing new, though was prophetic of two then-future Levels. God has been with unredeemed humanity as unredeemed humanity, since the dawn of man. Poetically, ‘Genesis’ paints something of that picture. That’s Level 1. At a deeper level (2), God walked with Israel in ethnic covenant. South Israel was reminded, by the unknown child time-clock (Is.7:16), that God was still with them—they were to trust in that covenant. The child was not their god, nor virgin born (Jesus would be), but his birthdays focused their attention of Yahweh as their mighty god (they spoke commonly as polytheists). At a new level (3), God’s son incarnated (Jesus) actually was/is deity as a man with us, and Christians enjoy this Level relationship as Spiritual Israel. And yet to come is Level 4, when the relationship will be upped again, God everlastingly with redeemed humanity (Rv.22).]
 
Vinny37 said:
If we say that, we exclude the father, the spirit, and the noncarnate son. The biblical context of Paul's text was not about a Sunday School Bible/Theology.
Click to expand...
I don't know what you mean by Sunday School Bible/Theology. What I'm saying is that
Christ is the Saviour. Is He not? It's just as simple as that. In order for Him to have the title of Saviour He must be the one who saves, right?

[2Pe 3:18 KJV] 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 
rogerg said:
I don't know what you mean by Sunday School Bible/Theology. What I'm saying is that
Christ is the Saviour. Is He not? It's just as simple as that.

[2Pe 3:18 KJV] 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Click to expand...
It is very simplistic to take a verse which mentions one person, and imply therefore that no other need apply: the father, son, and spirit, are saviour (Athanasian Creed is imperfect but worth reading). If I say that the spirit is “the truth”, would you not be right to say that Jesus is “the truth”? And yet John in 1 Jhn.5:6, was as right as John in Jhn.14:6. When Mary rejoiced in God her saviour, she did not mean messiah. 1 Tm.1:1 (likewise Jude 25), even in the KJV, recognises God as our saviour, and puts Jesus Christ as our lord. In fact 1 Cor.8:6, on its own, might say that Jesus is not deity, and certainly that the father is not lord. Good theology must crunch the numbers; Sunday Schools (like pre-maths) can be simplistic and overlook biblical depth (1 Cor.13:11).
 
Vinny37 said:
Rather too long to explain (and justify) in such a forum. It can be illustrated in many ways. Here's something I wrote a day or so ago: [The term ‘Immanuel’, from Is.7:14, was nothing new, though was prophetic of two then-future Levels. God has been with unredeemed humanity as unredeemed humanity, since the dawn of man. Poetically, ‘Genesis’ paints something of that picture. That’s Level 1. At a deeper level (2), God walked with Israel in ethnic covenant. South Israel was reminded, by the unknown child time-clock (Is.7:16), that God was still with them—they were to trust in that covenant. The child was not their god, nor virgin born (Jesus would be), but his birthdays focused their attention of Yahweh as their mighty god (they spoke commonly as polytheists). At a new level (3), God’s son incarnated (Jesus) actually was/is deity as a man with us, and Christians enjoy this Level relationship as Spiritual Israel. And yet to come is Level 4, when the relationship will be upped again, God everlastingly with redeemed humanity (Rv.22).]
Click to expand...
Can't get to a computer right now..
But...

What do you mean by unredeemed man?

Mankind has always been redeemed by Jesus'
sacrifice, no matter which atonement theory you like.
 
Vinny37 said:
It is very simplistic to take a verse which mentions one person, and imply therefore that no other need apply: the father, son, and spirit, are saviour (Athanasian Creed is imperfect but worth reading). If I say that the spirit is “the truth”, would you not be right to say that Jesus is “the truth”? And yet John in 1 Jhn.5:6, was as right as John in Jhn.14:6. When Mary rejoiced in God her saviour, she did not mean messiah. 1 Tm.1:1 (likewise Jude 25), even in the KJV, recognises God as our saviour, and puts Jesus Christ as our lord. In fact 1 Cor.8:6, on its own, might say that Jesus is not deity, and certainly that the father is not lord. Good theology must crunch the numbers; Sunday Schools (like pre-maths) can be simplistic and overlook biblical depth (1 Cor.13:11).
Click to expand...
The OT affirms what you state above.
Ezekiel....I (God) will gather my sheep - many have lead them astray.

Isaiah, God is savior.
Can't post the verses right now.
 
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